M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[lct]

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8 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Easily avoided - I only buy SD cards from a brand that I trust, and a source that I trust.  They used to come from B&H.  Lately,  I've bought some from Amazon.  Saving money on cheap SD cards sounds like a huge risk to me.

If it were that easy to avoid we would not have colleagues complaining about compatibility of some SD cards with such or such camera. It is not a matter of store or money but technology as i understand it. It seems that the M11 prefers UHS-I to UHS-II cards for whatever reason but it is my own feeling and i'm no techie at all . 

Edited November 27, 2022 by lct

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[Fractal]

9 minutes ago, lct said:

If it were that easy to avoid we would not have colleagues complaining about compatibility of some SD cards with such or such camera. It is not a matter of store or money but technology as i understand it. It seems that the M11 prefers UHS-I to UHS-II cards for whatever reason but it is my own feeling and i'm no techie at all . 

This was a big of a concern for me honestly. I would love to be able to use my Sony UHS-II cards I already have. They work perfectly on my A7RIV and too pricey right now to start looking at other UHS-II SD cards. All my UHS-I cards are sandisk extreme pro's and have so far worked fine on the 240. I'm likely going to take your advice and wait for this to be sorted out with firmware or maybe an M11-P down the line. Regardless, I'm loving the experience the M camera has been bringing me.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Fractal

[lct]

1 minute ago, Fractal said:

This was a big of a concern for me honestly. I would love to be able to use my Sony UHS-II cards I already have. They work perfectly on my A7RIV and too pricey right now to start looking at other UHS-II SD cards. [...]

I would forget those cards pending the next firmware update. Mine went to the bin immediately after i got my first and last M11 issue with it. I then tried the old UHS-I card of my M240 (UHS-I Sandisk Extreme Pro 95 MB/s). Worked like a charm so i bought a couple of UHS-I Sandisk Extreme Pro 170 MB/s with no problem at all since then.

[Jewl]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb lct:

I would forget those cards pending the next firmware update. Mine went to the bin immediately after i got my first and last M11 issue with it. I then tried the old UHS-I card of my M240 (UHS-I Sandisk Extreme Pro 95 MB/s). Worked like a charm so i bought a couple of UHS-I Sandisk Extreme Pro 170 MB/s with no problem at all since then.

I replaced my Sony Tough card by a Sandisk UHS-I and still have the problem with delayed/skipped auto preview. I don‘t think the theory holds true. Maybe for your case it worked but at least for mine it was not the cause…

[lct]

7 minutes ago, Jewl said:

I replaced my Sony Tough card by a Sandisk UHS-I and still have the problem with delayed/skipped auto preview. I don‘t think the theory holds true. Maybe for your case it worked but at least for mine it was not the cause…

There are probably different causes to different issues or to the same eventually. Best is to eliminate them one by one as far as possible. In your case, did you stop using UHS-II cards? If yes, did you disable Auto Review? If yes, are you using non coded lenses? Sorry to ask if you have replied already.

[Luke_Miller]

5 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

@Luke_Miller Which noise reduction programs are you using, and which do you prefer? 

Please elaborate for us...

I use Topaz DeNoise Ai, Topaz Photo Ai, or Nik Dfine depending on the image.  Generally, I find DeNoise gives the best results.

[jakontil]

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M11 is most pleasure to use, battery wont matter so much i could concentrate on shooting but dont get me wrong, the m10r have a great battery too only when i was used to m240, just felt a little worry

still can shoot 400s photos, with 35% percent remaining on m10r, with liveview and review occasionally 

i sold my m11 and back with m10r due to occasional lock up, though the last few months was solid with workaround like off standby mode and i never use auto review

m11 was more preferred due to its usb c charging and data transfer for me but may be i’d wait for next iteration

[Jewl]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb lct:

There are probably different causes to different issues or to the same eventually. Best is to eliminate them one by one as far as possible. In your case, did you stop using UHS-II cards? If yes, did you disable Auto Review? If yes, are you using non coded lenses? Sorry to ask if you have replied already.

No worries 😉 

Yes, I stopped using UHS-II SD-Cards. After I received the M11 back from customer care (they couldn't find anything / or couldn't reproduce the issue) I ordered a new SD Card (Sandisk Extreme Pro 200mb/s 64GB UHS-I) to replace the Sony Tough card I thought might have caused the problems. 

For me, the locking issue is not happening that often. My main problem is that auto preview is not properly working (sporadically remains black and need to press a couple of times the play button to see the image) - I have now disabled it for testing purposes but actually, that completely changes my workflow... Maybe I can get used to it.

Nevertheless, at the moment this topic really distracts me from taking photos. Whenever I am out, I take test pictures to better understand the issue but not really for the sake of taking photos... quite frustrating if you cannot just let go and focus on the actual thing! Typically, the tool (the camera in this case) is stepping in the background at some point but with the M11 I always get reminded that something is wrong... But let's see, I am close to the point of selling the whole thing but the frustration is still not big enough that I stick to it for now! Or at least the hope to make everything work outweighs...

[elmars]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Jewl:

Whenever I am out, I take test pictures to better understand the issue but not really for the sake of taking photos..

I can understand that, I felt the same way once. I then consciously resolved to ignore the errors and take pictures. That worked out quite well. If a mistake then appears, it still irritates me, of course, but I just keep going and try not to get angry. Maybe this will help you too.

None of this changes the fact that Leica has to do something. Urgently!

[ianforber]

13 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Easily avoided - I only buy SD cards from a brand that I trust, and a source that I trust.  They used to come from B&H.  Lately,  I've bought some from Amazon.  Saving money on cheap SD cards sounds like a huge risk to me.

Quite agree. I only use SanDisk cards bought direct from their website. My main card is an expensive UHS-II 64GB (which works fine and cost about £100). I had originally bought it to use in my Q2. When I bought my M11, I couldn’t afford another UHS-II card so swapped over the one I had been using in the Q2. Not relevant here but I bought a UHS-I 64GB card for the Q2 which only cost £17 and has worked fine in the Q2. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, Jewl said:

No worries 😉 

Yes, I stopped using UHS-II SD-Cards. After I received the M11 back from customer care (they couldn't find anything / or couldn't reproduce the issue) I ordered a new SD Card (Sandisk Extreme Pro 200mb/s 64GB UHS-I) to replace the Sony Tough card I thought might have caused the problems. 

For me, the locking issue is not happening that often. My main problem is that auto preview is not properly working (sporadically remains black and need to press a couple of times the play button to see the image) - I have now disabled it for testing purposes but actually, that completely changes my workflow... Maybe I can get used to it.

Nevertheless, at the moment this topic really distracts me from taking photos. Whenever I am out, I take test pictures to better understand the issue but not really for the sake of taking photos... quite frustrating if you cannot just let go and focus on the actual thing! Typically, the tool (the camera in this case) is stepping in the background at some point but with the M11 I always get reminded that something is wrong... But let's see, I am close to the point of selling the whole thing but the frustration is still not big enough that I stick to it for now! Or at least the hope to make everything work outweighs...

I understand this. I'm just trying to help you and others with less luck than me pending the next firmware update. One month to wait, not more hopefully.

[lct]

Another troll? 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/profile/99151-hammyusr/content/

[MikeMyers]

9 hours ago, Jewl said:

I am close to the point of selling the whole thing but the frustration is still not big enough that I stick to it for now

I'm way too stubborn to even think of doing something like that.  If I was in your shoes, I would re-read all the suggestions of what (not) to do.  Since memory cards are a potential issue, buy a new, good, card from a trusted source.

For reasons that might sound silly, If I was you, and I were all set to take a photo, and the camera locked up, try to set the camera to (M)anual mode with the exact same settings, and see if the same thing happens.

Maybe make up a list of all your settings on the camera.  Assuming the M11 has that capability, restore your settings to "default", and immediately try to capture an image.

While the camera is set "right", but locks up, take a pad and write down all your settings so you have a record of what was going on when the camera locked up.  If you restore your original settings, and the camera works, one by one go through all your settings and turn them back on, trying to take a photo each time you turn another setting on or adjust it.

Are you using the rangefinder, or Live View?  Next time the camera locks up, change to the other viewing mode, and see if it then works.

Keep track of your settings, and remember the last thing you did before the camera locked up.  Then un-do that setting, and see if it goes back to "normal".

What kind of metering are you using?  If the camera is locked up, and you change the metering mode see if that allow the camera to work.  

Lastly, is this something new, or did your camera always have this issue?  If not, is there a way to change the firmware settings to what they were when you first received the camera?  Or to any setting that still allowed the camera to work as intended?  

 

I hope I'm not wasting your time.  I would be trying the above for however many days it took.  Cameras used to be simple, before computers made everything so complex, and I'm convinced that software isn't "finished" until all the inevitable bugs have been identified and corrected.  Maybe shooting in (M)anual mode, where you set everything yourself will bypass the problem.  Maybe.

[Urbanflaneur]

Hi,

I've been using the M11 for about a month and have had a few lock-ups. In my case it happened when using live view, possible due to the camera overheating (working in Singapore). Also happened when switching the camera off, and then on again, quickly thereafter. Removing the battery has resolved the issue each time. Used to experience the same with the M10.

Regards

Jan

[Jewl]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb MikeMyers:

I'm way too stubborn to even think of doing something like that.  If I was in your shoes, I would re-read all the suggestions of what (not) to do.  Since memory cards are a potential issue, buy a new, good, card from a trusted source.

For reasons that might sound silly, If I was you, and I were all set to take a photo, and the camera locked up, try to set the camera to (M)anual mode with the exact same settings, and see if the same thing happens.

Maybe make up a list of all your settings on the camera.  Assuming the M11 has that capability, restore your settings to "default", and immediately try to capture an image.

While the camera is set "right", but locks up, take a pad and write down all your settings so you have a record of what was going on when the camera locked up.  If you restore your original settings, and the camera works, one by one go through all your settings and turn them back on, trying to take a photo each time you turn another setting on or adjust it.

Are you using the rangefinder, or Live View?  Next time the camera locks up, change to the other viewing mode, and see if it then works.

Keep track of your settings, and remember the last thing you did before the camera locked up.  Then un-do that setting, and see if it goes back to "normal".

What kind of metering are you using?  If the camera is locked up, and you change the metering mode see if that allow the camera to work.  

Lastly, is this something new, or did your camera always have this issue?  If not, is there a way to change the firmware settings to what they were when you first received the camera?  Or to any setting that still allowed the camera to work as intended?  

 

I hope I'm not wasting your time.  I would be trying the above for however many days it took.  Cameras used to be simple, before computers made everything so complex, and I'm convinced that software isn't "finished" until all the inevitable bugs have been identified and corrected.  Maybe shooting in (M)anual mode, where you set everything yourself will bypass the problem.  Maybe.

Really appreciate your message and energy you are putting into all this! The thing is, I keep testing and trying to figure out, how to reproduce things since the beginning 6 months ago. I have paid ~8k+ for a camera for which some people won't even buy a car. And I do think I can expect a working product and not just feel as a Leica technician who is being paid for doing all of this! 😉 don't get me wrong, I am obviously willing to go down this route to some degree but at a certain point I really have to ask whether the frustration is really worth it as there is a lot of other topics in life that I get for free, do not want to pay to make it even more complicated! Please bare in mind, this is a slight exaggerated view / explanation of my current situation! And no worries, as I am in the software development industry, I am quite familiar with how testing in case of failure works. 

Coming back to the topic, I have tested different SD cards and also with the internal memory only, didn't make any difference! I reset the camera a couple of times also avoided to configure everything like I need it to ensure that certain settings (e.g. some easy / minor things like changing the favorite menu) have a negative impact on the overall behavior (had this with my Leica Q). Rangefinder only, mainly Matrix/Multi field metering (changed it to highlight weighted metering and it locked up yesterday)...

The problem with reproducing this issue is that it really happens very sporadically. Sometimes you almost forgot about the issue then it suddenly happens. On Sunday for example it happened in a 1.5h timeframe every 3-5th picture. That's why it is quite hard to relate to a certain settings change if you cannot properly reproduce it. 

But long story short, yes, will still keep an eye on it and will of course wait for the next firmware update and see whether this changes everything or not. But as the customer care was not able to reproduce it, I am not expecting that Leica is understanding where the lock ups etc. are coming from! 

Btw.: Yesterday I turned off the auto preview as suggested which was my main problem (it only remains in certain cases black and only pressing the play button a couple of times to see the image - feels as if the camera is frozen but eventually wakes up) and then suddenly the camera locked up. Will keep an eye on this as well, feels a bit this has worsened the situation! 

[MikeMyers]

10 hours ago, Urbanflaneur said:

Removing the battery has resolved the issue each time.

That should be a huge help for people trying to track this down.  It eliminates some of the possibilities.

 

4 hours ago, Jewl said:

On Sunday for example it happened in a 1.5h timeframe every 3-5th picture

 

Can you go back to the same place, with the same settings, same everything, and see if this is repeatable?

 

Over the past few weeks, I've re-watched the M11 videos, and I've done some thinking about the camera.  My thinking has changed from "no way" to "I understand and like the new design".  KEH now has two used M11 cameras.  Maybe I'll be able to make a trade when The Leica Store Miami gets more of them.  I can't afford to buy one without doing a trade-in.  The more I understand it, the more I like the M11.  I'm sure the "crashing" issue will be resolved.  A month ago, I was more interested in the M10-R, but no longer.

[Qlan]

On 11/26/2022 at 12:15 PM, Fractal said:

Thank you. Yeah, I had read some of the threads on it. I was just wondering really what the scale of the cameras affected has been. If it's something that doesn't happen as frequently as I may think then I'd likely go for the camera.

That was what I thought too before I bought the M11 and experienced many lockups (see my posts). However it's unfrequent enough (2-3% of the time) and was always resolved by popping the battery that the pros outweigh the cons...

My theory is that third party lenses are an aggravating factor. Since you plan to use some, I would say your chances of experiencing lockups are higher than people using Leica 6-bit encoded lenses.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Qlan

[lct]

23 minutes ago, Qlan said:

My theory is that third party lenses are an aggravating factor. Since you plan to use some, I would say your chances of experiencing lockups are higher than people using Leica 6-bit encoded lenses.

Sure but it is no rocket science to hand code a CV or a ZM lens. Just a compromise for sure but who cares really? Your Planar 50 will be treated as a Summicron 50 or your Ultron 35 as a Summicron 35 and the earth will not stop turning .

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[Qlan]

22 minutes ago, lct said:

Sure but it is no rocket science to hand code a CV or a ZM lens.

I'm sorry but if you mean manually adding black paint on a CV or ZM lens, that is not trivial... Nobody should have to do that because a $9000 camera is buggy.

And if you mean using the manual M encoding in the menu, that doesn't prevent freezes at all.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Qlan

[lct]

3 minutes ago, Qlan said:

I'm sorry but if you mean manually adding black paint on a CV or ZM lens, that is not trivial... Nobody should have to do that because a $9000 camera is buggy.

Please allow this Planar/Sonnar/Biogon/Ultron/Heliar/Nokton etc. user to smile a bit. Most of my CV and ZM lenses are hand coded and i'm just an old lawyer with no DIY skills whatsoever. Now i'm just trying to help you know. One solution exists, its up to you to use it of not...