Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[romualdo]

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8 hours ago, 250swb said:

My camera is from the first run #2880643 and it's definitely an MP.

you're right - see link - looks like there were only 250 MP6's produced - the remaining 750 must have been MPs?

https://jerrybei.com/reviews/2019/2/25/leica-mp6

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[williamj]

I’m a little surprised. If you test the camera in the shop and it scratches the film it is defective and so cannot be sold to anyone else. You can demand a different camera and they have to return the camera to Wetzlar. They can’t sell it as new but opened box or as a demonstrator. Or am I missing something?  

[Huss]

47 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I looked at that piece on my new MP (which doesn’t scratch) and couldn’t envisage it contacting the film unless there was no tension at the take-up spool end. 

i have just looked at it again, shining a light into the base of the camera with the back pressed closed. Those two bits of metal do not get closer to the film than the points of the sprockets (in my camera anyway), and the film should be kept tight on the sprockets during advancing. When I get time I’ll load my wasted film again and see how the tension changes during advancing and, later, releasing the clutch to rewind. 

I put a piece of scrap film in, closed the back and shone a light up in there.  I could see that those metal pieces do push down on the film to seat it properly in the sprockets.  But it looks like it only comes into contact with the film over the sprockets, not in the image area.  It makes sense, otherwise why have those metal pieces there?

[ymc226]

How do you check to see if a new MP scratches film other than shoot and develop a roll?  I have a roll of film that I just took completely out of it's canister.  The film was improperly loaded so lost purchase on the sprockets about 5 shots in.  I rewound the film back in (after first trying unsuccessfully to just wind it back so the leader remained sticking out). The leader couldn't successfully be extracted as it is a strange plastic canister, not the usual metal type ones from Kodak.

A new BP MP is coming in a few days and I'd rather use the exposed roll than do test shots.  Can I use use this out of canister film roll to check?  Tomorrow, I am picking up my first rolls from a new silver MP I got a month ago and hopefully it won't be a problem.

[Huss]

You do not need to develop the film.  Actually it is much easier to see the scratches if you do not as you have a solid opaque base.  Just wind the film entirely through the camera until you get to the end.  i.e. take 36+ shots.  Rewind.  Take film out of camera and pull it out of the cassette so you can examine it for scratches.  You'll be checking the shiny side.  You may have to angle it to the light, moving it around, to make sure you can clearly identify any issues.

[gunther35]

23 hours ago, williamj said:

You don’t need a 22x loupe to see the scratches, the light just needs to come in from a side angle. If you’re holding the negative up to a light and moving it around you’ll be able to tell quite clearly if it is in the shiny side vs the emulsion side. 
 

I once received scans back that had a “scratch” in the same place along the entire roll but it wasn’t on the negative it was an artefact due to the scanner doing a half scan on each negative which was one pixel out when they stitched it together. The scanners told me they usually check so that it doesn’t often get seen by the public. I’m not at home or I’d post a picture. 
 

I’ve posted in two places in this forum pictures of micro scratches from my 1950s Leicas that don’t affect image quality so I’ll restrain myself   I believe that the engineering tolerances on the film gate are tight and so some cameras produce bigger scratches than others. Scratches that affect image quality are obviously unacceptable. 

Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[tjxism]

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I agree with the principle of thoroughly checking it upon purchase. But, not all customers have enough experience with film to identify IQ damaging scratches from normal marks (considering the film is pressed against the plate, there will be very minor marks anyway). It's difficult to tell how severe the scratch is without developing it and scan it (and, if the lab does the scanning, they are likely to remove the scratch anyway). 

This scratch issue is really, really awful in this era. I tried at least 5 rolls back in 2020 to verify and confirm it's a production issue. With the film prices today.....

I won't recommend my close friends to buy a new Leica film cameras. Period. 

[250swb]

7 hours ago, romualdo said:

you're right - see link - looks like there were only 250 MP6's produced - the remaining 750 must have been MPs?

https://jerrybei.com/reviews/2019/2/25/leica-mp6

I knew the MP-6 was a run of 250 (but a run of 500 announced) but already that is a moving target because if they started at 2880101 and that camera in the link is 2880355 it could be  254, or more. But whatever the true number is I think Leica just appropriated the unused the serial numbers of the MP-6 and started MP production from there onwards.

[wattsy]

12 hours ago, 250swb said:

I wouldn’t want to buy a Leica where the outer box had been opened, never mind somebody else buggering about with it. 

The outer box has a lot to answer for, as does the fancy packaging (with a box within a box opening routine beloved of youtube people) that companies like Apple pioneered. It wasn't that long ago (I guess 15 years ago) that you could go into an excellent Leica dealer like RG Lewis and ask to see the latest camera or lens and Len would take it out of the box, let you put the lens on your camera (go outside take a few photos if you wanted to) and/or handle the camera, dry fire it a few times, etc and then he would either put it back in the box or back on the shelf behind the counter. At no point did anyone think: "oh my god, this camera or lens is no longer new – there's no way I'm buying that". Ex-demo would be something that had been actively used as a demonstrator for a substantial period of time and probably had minor signs of wear. Something just taken out of the box a few times and handled carefully/briefly would be sold as new. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by wattsy

[250swb]

27 minutes ago, wattsy said:

The outer box has a lot to answer for, as does the fancy packaging (with a box within a box opening routine beloved of youtube people) that companies like Apple pioneered. It wasn't that long ago (I guess 15 years ago) that you could go into an excellent Leica dealer like RG Lewis and ask to see the latest camera or lens and Len would take it out of the box, let you put the lens on your camera (go outside take a few photos if you wanted to) and/or handle the camera, dry fire it a few times, etc and then he would either put it back in the box or back on the shelf behind the counter. At no point did anyone think: "oh my god, this camera or lens is no longer new – there's no way I'm buying that". Ex-demo would be something that had been actively used as a demonstrator for a substantial period of time and probably had minor signs of wear. Something just taken out of the box a few times and handled carefully/briefly would be sold as new. 

I know what you mean but fifteen years ago nearly all people buying a Leica were still experienced with film cameras and knew where their fingers were supposed to go, and where not. There's a lot of newbies around now. And whoever it was they weren't being primed to test a film through the camera because Leica's didn't scratch film in those days. Ultimately the flimsy nature of the outer brown cardboard delivery box was a dead giveaway given it was almost impossible to get the silver box back inside without splitting it, it took extreme skill and experience for a Leica dealer to do that 😄

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, wattsy said:

The outer box has a lot to answer for, as does the fancy packaging (with a box within a box opening routine beloved of youtube people) that companies like Apple pioneered.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/feb/02/iphone-first-generation-2007-unopened-us-auction

'A first generation, unopened 2007 iPhone is expected to sell for more than $50,000 when it goes to auction on Thursday. The phone, which has a 2 megapixel camera and 8GB of storage, was given to Karen Green as a gift when she got a new job, Business Insider reported. But Green already had a new phone, and moreover, the iPhone was not compatible with her existing cellular network. Rather than open the iPhone, Green stuck it on a shelf. It remained there, “wrapped in a pair of felt pajamas”, for years. In October, Green heard that a first generation iPhone from 2007 had sold for $39,339.60.'

The original seal seems to be the key thing for those who fetishize packaging. Of course, many of you will know from this video how a Professional unboxes a Leica:

 

[LocalHero1953]

There’s a massive anomaly here which casts doubt on the whole improbable story. Who the hell wears felt pyjamas?

[Huss]

47 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

There’s a massive anomaly here which casts doubt on the whole improbable story. Who the hell wears felt pyjamas?

I think fleece is most probably the equivalent to felt.

[Huss]

8 hours ago, tjxism said:

I agree with the principle of thoroughly checking it upon purchase. But, not all customers have enough experience with film to identify IQ damaging scratches from normal marks (considering the film is pressed against the plate, there will be very minor marks anyway). It's difficult to tell how severe the scratch is without developing it and scan it (and, if the lab does the scanning, they are likely to remove the scratch anyway). 

This scratch issue is really, really awful in this era. I tried at least 5 rolls back in 2020 to verify and confirm it's a production issue. With the film prices today.....

I won't recommend my close friends to buy a new Leica film cameras. Period. 

It is absolutely ridiculous and frankly has never been on my radar to check for any camera, at any price point, new or used.

This loops back to that little signed card that Leica packs with every camera, claiming the rigorous quality check procedures that the camera has gone through.  Which frankly at this point is a bald faced lie.  Leica didn’t even check to see if they fixed my brand new M6 after I sent it back for them to fix the scratching!  
 

In the last few weeks I bought two beater Nikon N80s ($20 each) and was gifted an Olympus Xa2 that was put away years ago on a dusty shelf with batteries (leaked but luckily no damage) and film in it.  All work perfectly, none scratch film.  Because that is the most basic thing that you expect from any camera.  It does not scratch film.

[Ouroboros]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

I think fleece is most probably the equivalent to felt.

Crap stuff for roofing, but at least it doesn't scratch.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Ouroboros

[earleygallery]

7 hours ago, wattsy said:

The outer box has a lot to answer for, as does the fancy packaging (with a box within a box opening routine beloved of youtube people) that companies like Apple pioneered. It wasn't that long ago (I guess 15 years ago) that you could go into an excellent Leica dealer like RG Lewis and ask to see the latest camera or lens and Len would take it out of the box, let you put the lens on your camera (go outside take a few photos if you wanted to) and/or handle the camera, dry fire it a few times, etc and then he would either put it back in the box or back on the shelf behind the counter. At no point did anyone think: "oh my god, this camera or lens is no longer new – there's no way I'm buying that". Ex-demo would be something that had been actively used as a demonstrator for a substantial period of time and probably had minor signs of wear. Something just taken out of the box a few times and handled carefully/briefly would be sold as new. 

I worked in a camera shop in the 80's and yes, this was exactly what happened, customer asks to see a Nikon F3, I'd take one (boxed) off the shelf and open it up, point out the key features and let the customer handle it. They would then either buy it, or it would be put back and await the next customer.

In fact, and reading this post has reminded me, the boss used to stress, get whatever it was the customer was interested into their hands!!

We didn't sell new Leica gear but I can't remember any boxes being sealed at that time. If one is a retailer it must be really expensive having to sell every opened box as 'shop soiled' or whatever.

[wattsy]

50 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

We didn't sell new Leica gear but I can't remember any boxes being sealed at that time. If one is a retailer it must be really expensive having to sell every opened box as 'shop soiled' or whatever.

As you can probably gather from my post, I prefer the older "R G Lewis" style of Leica retailing, but the newer OCD approach can have its benefits to the consumer. A few years ago (I think it was 2014) I went in to the Leica Mayfair shop to chase up (and have a whinge about) my Monochrom that had gone back to Wetzlar due to the sensor corrosion problem. When I was in the shop I saw what was then the newly released M-A and asked to have a look. I was told that it had only arrived that week and, it being the only one they had, they would sell it at a discount because it wasn't in a sealed box and, horror of horrors, it had since been touched by human hands. (Being only a few days old, the sales assistant suspected I had been the first to actually take a look.) Even I hadn't been the first to handle it, the camera was obviously brand spanking new by any common sense measure and I was happy to buy it with a 15% discount. 😂

Edited February 3, 2023 by wattsy

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

I worked in a camera shop in the 80's and yes, this was exactly what happened, customer asks to see a Nikon F3, I'd take one (boxed) off the shelf and open it up, point out the key features and let the customer handle it. They would then either buy it, or it would be put back and await the next customer.

In fact, and reading this post has reminded me, the boss used to stress, get whatever it was the customer was interested into their hands!!

We didn't sell new Leica gear but I can't remember any boxes being sealed at that time. If one is a retailer it must be really expensive having to sell every opened box as 'shop soiled' or whatever.

This happens today with luxury watches.  I've been in watch shops dozens of times and have asked to see a watch that was in the display case, which I was then encouraged to strap on my wrist (some dealers will ask you not to actually strap the watch on completely so as not to crease the strap, but to just drape it over your wrist instead).  The dealers have no qualms about selling these watches as new at 100% of the new price - of course they are put back in their original packaging at the time of sale, so the buyer gets the complete kit. 

Being the anal retentive individual I am, I always ask them to order me a brand new, factory sealed watch rather than selling me one out of the case  But I may be the exception rather than the rule - although probably not around here  

On a related note, I went into a Leica Store a few years ago to buy the 1.4x viewfinder magnifier.  The magnifier was sold to me as brand new and I paid the brand new price for it.  I got it home and went to screw it onto the viewfinder of my M-A.  Not matter what I tried, I couldn't get the threads on the magnifier to mesh with the threads on the viewfinder.  I felt like a complete moron - who can't screw a magnifier onto a viewfinder!?  I sheepishly went back to the Leica store and told them I was having trouble installing the magnifier.  The salesperson took a close look at it and realized that the magnifier had an M10 viewfinder adapter on it.  So, someone had obviously been playing with the magnifier and put on the adapter for the M10 and forgot to take it off before putting the magnifier back in the box.  Was the magnifier a 'floor model'?  Was it bought and returned?  The salesperson insisted it was brand new and couldn't explain the presence of the adapter.

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[LuckySquirrel]

6 minutes ago, logan2z said:

This happens today with luxury watches.  I've been in watch shops dozens of times and have asked to see a watch that was in the display case, which I was then encouraged to strap on my wrist (some dealers will ask you not to actually strap the watch on completely so as not to crease the strap, but to just drape it over your wrist instead).  The dealers have no qualms about selling these watches as new at 100% of the new price - of course they are put back in their original packaging at the time of sale, so the buyer gets the complete kit. 

Being the anal retentive individual I am, I always ask them to order me a brand new, factory sealed watch rather than selling me one out of the case  But I may be the exception rather than the rule - although probably not around here  

On a related note, I went into a Leica Store a few years ago to buy the 1.4x viewfinder magnifier.  The magnifier was sold to me as brand new and I paid the brand new price for it.  I got it home and went to screw it onto the viewfinder of my M-A.  Not matter what I tried, I couldn't get the threads on the magnifier to mesh with the threads on the viewfinder.  I felt like a complete moron - who can't screw a magnifier onto a viewfinder!?  I sheepishly went back to the Leica store and told them I was having trouble installing the magnifier.  The salesperson took a close look at it and realized that the magnifier had an M10 viewfinder adapter on it.  So, someone had obviously been playing with the magnifier and put on the adapter for the M10 and forgot to take it off before putting the magnifier back in the box.  Was the magnifier a 'floor model'?  Was it bought and returned?  The salesperson insisted it was brand new and couldn't explain the presence of the adapter.

I know a lot of Rolex AD's, etc. will let some of the clientele they trust see a particularly in-demand model before selling it to its final owner (even if it was ordered specifically for them or they were next on the waitlist, etc.). I was lucky to get a Starbucks (Cermit?) last year and wouldn't be surprised if they let some others see it before I was "allowed" to purchase it (and I do say "allowed" because dealers for luxury watches absolutely can and do choose who they sell to). I was just happy to "get the call" though and knew I would be getting many more scratches on it as I daily wear my pieces and don't leave them locked in an exhibition box just to ogle at.

It's funny but I was reading some articles about Leica cameras and luxury watches. I think a lot of people who appreciate one appreciate the other (both being precision, mechanical products).

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, LuckySquirrel said:

It's funny but I was reading some articles about Leica cameras and luxury watches. I think a lot of people who appreciate one appreciate the other (both being precision, mechanical products).

Right, probably at least partly the motivation behind the Leica watch.

CameraWest, who owns the Leica Store in San Francisco and has two other camera stores in California, recently started a retail watch business to cater to its watch-loving customers.

https://www.cwwatchshop.com/