Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Stevejack]

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On closer inspection it seems like this is how it’s meant to operate, it sits on a little leaf spring and applies pressure to the film, but the wiggle/play where it can slide up towards the top of the plate and back down again when there is no pressure on it actually looks like it’s by design. Can anyone else with an MP confirm?

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Stevejack

[logan2z]

5 hours ago, 250swb said:

My BS meter is off the scale with this thread.

Maybe it needs a CLA.

[Huss]

3 hours ago, Stevejack said:

On closer inspection it seems like this is how it’s meant to operate, it sits on a little leaf spring and applies pressure to the film, but the wiggle/play where it can slide up towards the top of the plate and back down again when there is no pressure on it actually looks like it’s by design. Can anyone else with an MP confirm?

 

 

1.  You should never touch the surface of the pressure plate.

2.  There seems to be an awful lot of dust in your camera. Depending on the dust, it can scratch your film.

[Stevejack]

38 minutes ago, Huss said:

1.  You should never touch the surface of the pressure plate.

2.  There seems to be an awful lot of dust in your camera. Depending on the dust, it can scratch your film.

Yep saw the dust in the video and cleaned it (wasn't really visible in person), also wiped off the plate properly after I made the vid. You could be right about the dust being the culprit of the scratching.     The camera is a 2022 build but I'm not the first owner - do you have any information regarding the sliding up/down of the pressure plate? Is this normal on the MP? 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Stevejack

[labyrinth]

5 hours ago, Stevejack said:

On closer inspection it seems like this is how it’s meant to operate, it sits on a little leaf spring and applies pressure to the film, but the wiggle/play where it can slide up towards the top of the plate and back down again when there is no pressure on it actually looks like it’s by design. Can anyone else with an MP confirm?

 

 

mine 2003 MP behaves the same

[Stevejack]

Just now, labyrinth said:

mine 2003 MP behaves the same

That's great thank you, good to know it's not a one-off issue. I started looking because I notice scratches on my negative (which I assumed were from my scanner, but this thread made me wonder!).

I also find the MP very noisy and 'crunchy' when rewinding. It also has an audible and tactile "clunk" about once every rotation which is very different to both M3 cameras I've owned which are smooth as butter during the film rewinding.

[labyrinth]

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14 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

That's great thank you, good to know it's not a one-off issue. I started looking because I notice scratches on my negative (which I assumed were from my scanner, but this thread made me wonder!).

I also find the MP very noisy and 'crunchy' when rewinding. It also has an audible and tactile "clunk" about once every rotation which is very different to both M3 cameras I've owned which are smooth as butter during the film rewinding.

My M6 is smoother and quieter in operation than my MP

[Topsy]

Just checked my 2003 MP and it is the same as yours however my M2 amd M4-P are solid, no movement at all.

[Stevejack]

1 hour ago, Topsy said:

Just checked my 2003 MP and it is the same as yours however my M2 amd M4-P are solid, no movement at all.

Thanks Topsy, good to know. 

[TomB_tx]

The pressure plate is wide enough so that it rests on the outer two frame rails, which are slightly higher than the center two, so it doesn't really "press" on the film, but creates a channel for the film to pass through and keeps it flat. It may touch the film as the film tries to bow, so keeps it flat. That "touch" can be enough to scratch film if there is dust or a burr on the plate, especially if the film has taken a "curl" from being wound tightly. 

Back in the '60s I have had new cameras that scratched the back of film, and cured it by polishing the plate with a very fine "Arkansas stone" to remove small burrs.

[archive_all]

Was it mentioned which side of the film was scratched?

[250swb]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

There are several other points where film could have been scratched, not just the pressure plate.

And many of them nowadays are in film manufacturing. Without the big plants running 24/7 switching them off and then on again is introducing random faults in the film. Where faults were once spotted very quickly the feedback to the manufacturer is now much slower and the manufacturer is dealing with smaller volumes to be representative in quality control.

[hdmesa]

This happened to me with a new M-A but also a Leica M4-P with a Leica CLA. The problem was caused by not fully engaging the rewind lever, causing too much pressure to be applied to the film as it was rewound. It was noticeably easier to rewind the film after figuring this out. The scratches I was getting were random and never in the same place. They didn't show up on color film scans, only on b&w with lab scans. Once I made sure the rewind lever was fully engaged – pushing it HARD, not just casually flipping it – no scratches from either camera.

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Edited November 18, 2022 by hdmesa

[lmans]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

This happened to me with a new M-A but also a Leica M4-P with a Leica CLA. The problem was caused by not fully engaging the rewind lever, causing too much pressure to be applied to the film as it was rewound. It was noticeably easier to rewind the film after figuring this out. The scratches I was getting were random and never in the same place. They didn't show up on color film scans, only on b&w with lab scans. Once I made sure the rewind lever was fully engaged – pushing it HARD, not just casually flipping it – no scratches from either camera.

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Can u explain the issue more… sorry I am it following… as you describe rewind process 

[delta100]

It may be when you have rewound the film back into the cassette. I know on mine it winds in very tight and when I unload the cassette it unwinds very fast in the cassette. It could well be some kind of internal film cassette tension. Is the scratching on the cell or the emulsion side?

Edited November 18, 2022 by delta100

[Jacobjuul]

On 11/16/2022 at 6:37 AM, labyrinth said:

My M6 is smoother and quieter in operation than my MP

Mine too  

[lmans]

Three things to be mindful of.....   might make a difference or not.

24 exp to 36 exp rolls. The tightness in rewinding the last 10 exposures in a 36 count canister might add to the scratch level if your pressure plate has any dust on it. Not sure if this was mentioned prior but if so, shouldn't be an all inclusive Leica problem.

When rewinding all the way into the canister, it might scratch even though there is some sort of felt lining. Again, not all-inclusive to just Leica. 

Type of film....some cheaper films scratch easier....Again, not all-inclusive to just Leica. 

jim

Edited November 18, 2022 by lmans

[hdmesa]

23 hours ago, lmans said:

Can u explain the issue more… sorry I am it following… as you describe rewind process 

To rewind the film, you must flip the release lever on the front of the camera. This releases the film spool and allows you to use the rewind knob or crank to rewind the film.

If the release lever is not flipped all the way over with a good amount of pressure, the film spool will release but still be under too much tension. This means the film is being held too tightly against the pressure plate as it’s rewound, resulting in scratches simply from the friction involved. Also when it’s under this tension, it will be dragged back into the film canister with too much tension, and the opening of the film canister may scratch the film.

[lmans]

36 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

To rewind the film, you must flip the release lever on the front of the camera. This releases the film spool and allows you to use the rewind knob or crank to rewind the film.

If the release lever is not flipped all the way over with a good amount of pressure, the film spool will release but still be under too much tension. This means the film is being held too tightly against the pressure plate as it’s rewound, resulting in scratches simply from the friction involved. Also when it’s under this tension, it will be dragged back into the film canister with too much tension, and the opening of the film canister may scratch the film.

Interesting....will make sure I flip the lever all the way....never noticed thought of that as an issue but will double check, thanks, jim

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Huss]

Had it for a week.  Three rolls scratched.  All in the same place.  Different types of film, developed at different places.  All with the same scratches.

It's at Leica NJ now.  With the final roll of film, I didn't even bother to develop.  Just sacrificed a roll so Leica could see the scratches along the entire length, and sent that in with the camera.

It was very nice that Leica did pack that nice little quality assurance card with this camera, saying it had been checked over multiple times during its manufacture.  Not exactly sure what they check apart from - is it a camera? Yes/No..

Some people may say, well how could they possibly check to make sure it doesn't scratch film?  Well, just like I did...  Put a roll through it, no need to develop, look at the film.  If no scratches, we are good.  If scratches - then fix that $5600 camera before you ship it.  Is this really that complicated?  My $50 Kodak Ektar H35 camera that I recently bought does not scratch film.  But maybe I am expecting too much from a camera that cost 112 times as much?

The thing is, I am disappointed but not upset as I am fortunate enough to have other Ms to use.  But if I was someone who sold off everything to get one, the dream camera, and this happened?  I would be furious.  Anyway, I'll see how this plays out.

FYI the staff at Leica Store Los Angeles were wonderful to deal with.  Extremely apologetic, would have given me a new one - even though I didn't buy it from them - if they had any in stock.  They are handling everything.  No complaints there.  There is an irony here that this is the first new M camera that I have bought, and the only one that I have that has issues...

 

 

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