Which 90mm lens for M6

[a.noctilux]

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As Tom wrote,

You can't go wrong !

 

I know that choosing one 90mm is not simple, but just do it.

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[Ouroboros]

I used a 90mm elmarit-m f2.8 (last version) for a number of years, it's a great lens and it deserves it's reputation.  They are still reasonably priced  used as Leica lenses go and it makes little sense to me why anyone would want to spend more money on a used 90mm summarit.

A year ago I bought a new 90mm apo-summicron f2, it's an amazing lens on film and digital (MP & M10-R) clearly better than the elmarit-m.  I never used the 90mm elmarit-m again and I sold it.  The 90mm apo-summicron was well worth the cost for me.

 

[a.noctilux]

I wrote in my post #7,

this Apo-Summicron-M 90mm would be my choice, even if over time I enjoyed smaller, lighter 90mm lenses.

This apo is not the best but not so expensive as newly released apo lenses from Leica.

This apo 90mm is not that big or heavy, a very nice companion of M6 with that very usable f/2 (with care ! ).

 

OP, if you can buy apo 90mm, practice it a bit, you will never need another 90mm.

[LarsHP]

23 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I used a 90mm elmarit-m f2.8 (last version) for a number of years, it's a great lens and it deserves it's reputation.  They are still reasonably priced  used as Leica lenses go and it makes little sense to me why anyone would want to spend more money on a used 90mm summarit.

A year ago I bought a new 90mm apo-summicron f2, it's an amazing lens on film and digital (MP & M10-R) clearly better than the elmarit-m.  I never used the 90mm elmarit-m again and I sold it.  The 90mm apo-summicron was well worth the cost for me.

 

I could almost have written this myself (except for the cameras used).

I had the Elmarit-M (E46) and thought I would never sell it because it is such a beautiful lens both to hold, look at and optically. The built-in lens hood is really nice to have.

At a point, I bought the Summarit f/2.5 instead of going directly to the Apo-Summicron. I sold the Summarit shortly after buying it because the Elmarit-M was better in almost every way (except transmission in the very center): smoother bokeh and transition zone, much less vignetting (which defeats the purpose of getting the Summarit) and better sharpness. It has a bit of field curvature which means for landscape (at infinity), the sides will not be in focus when the center is, so more stopping down is needed.

However, in the end I bought the Apo-Summicron-M and that wonderful Elmarit-M was just sitting on the shelf after that, so in the end, I sold it.

Regarding lenses for film, there are (at least) two "philosophical" approaches:

1) Since film appears softer and has that old "vibe", having a tack sharp lens will complement it, getting a kind of balance.

2) Since 35mm film won't give you that extra resolution that modern digital cameras have, it's a waste using those expensive, highly resolving lenses (like the modern apo's). For this reason, it makes more sense to use older lenses that were designed for film.

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[Ouroboros]

40 minutes ago, LarsHP said:

 

2) Since 35mm film won't give you that extra resolution that modern digital cameras have, it's a waste using those expensive, highly resolving lenses (like the modern apo's). For this reason, it makes more sense to use older lenses that were designed for film.

 

I don't think it's a waste,  you will see some difference between the 90mm elmarit-m and the 90mm apo-summicron if you try to find it with some films.  I'm talking about  comparing images on less mainstream films such as Fuji Velvia and CMS20ii and the differences are there.  I think how a lens feels on the camera for the user is also worth noting, the 90mm apo-summicron, to me, despite being heavier and larger than the 90mm elmarit-m, is better balanced when using the camera. 

The cost differential is considerable; the average price of a used 90mm elmarit-m f2.8 seems to be around £850 against the £4000+ of a new 90mm apo-summicron (mine is the safari edition).  It's not relevant to me as I'm unlikely to ever sell my 90mm apo-summicron, but I think it is the compelling argument against buying into the somewhat inferior build and handling of a used 90mm summarit which seems to cost around 40% more than a used elmarit-m.

When all is said and done, all the Leica and Voigtlander 90mm M mount lenses are so good it mainly comes down to cost, personal requirements and preference.  You can't really go wrong with any of them, but the 90mm apo-summicron is the best of the bunch for my use on MP and M10-R.

[lct]

The OP did not ask about 90/2 lenses but the 90/2 apo, that i like much otherwise, is my worst lens for portraits. Too sharp for my taste but it is a subjective matter obviously. My favorite for portraits would be the Summicron 90/2 v3 but it suffers from color fringing on digital. Remains my all time favorite the Summicron 90/2 v2 but it is a bulky lens unfortunately. YMMV.

[Ouroboros]

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11 minutes ago, lct said:

The OP did not ask about 90/2 lenses but the 90/2 apo, that i like much otherwise, is my worst lens for portraits. Too sharp for my taste but it is a subjective matter obviously. My favorite for portraits would be the Summicron 90/2 v3 but it suffers from color fringing on digital. Remains my all time favorite the Summicron 90/2 v2 but it is a bulky lens unfortunately. YMMV.

Forum threads morph and evolve and don't necessarily have to stick to repetitious replies to the OP to be helpful to others.

The 90mm apo-summicron f2 is the best portrait lens I've ever used on a Leica M.  'Too sharp' is a hackneyed admission that post processing skills need upgrading.

[wizard]

Am 29.11.2022 um 22:31 schrieb Al Brown:

The Leica Elmar-C 90/4 is incredibly cheap and a very decent performer.

+1. And the same is true for its twin, the Minolta Rokkor 4/90, which was produced in two versions for the Leitz/Minolta CL and the later Minolta CLE.

 

Am 30.11.2022 um 09:13 schrieb grahamc:

another very worth a look is the 90:4 minolta rokkor USD250 !

There you go, yes, I fully agree. This is probably my most used 90mm lens. Small, light, sharp, good contrast and colors, what more do you want ...

[lct]

7 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

[...] The 90mm apo-summicron f2 is the best portrait lens I've ever used on a Leica M.  'Too sharp' is a hackneyed admission that post processing skills need upgrading.

Different taste or experience here. My post processing skills are not the best certainly but i won't use them on persons i like or respect anyway, so for me at least, too sharp is always an issue.

[lct]

Just now, wizard said:

+1. And the same is true for its twin, the Minolta Rokkor 4/90, which was produced in two versions for the Leitz/Minolta CL and the later Minolta CLE.

 

There you go, yes, I fully agree. This is probably my most used 90mm lens. Small, light, sharp, good contrast and colors, what more do you want ...

+1 for both lenses with a preference for the Rokkor 90/4 made for Minolta CLE. Not that i dislike the Elmar-C but the Rokkor for CLE has a better resistance to flare by a significant margin. Otherwise the sloped focus cam of the Elmar-C has never been a problem for me.

[wizard]

vor einer Stunde schrieb lct:

with a preference for the Rokkor 90/4 made for Minolta CLE

This is the one I own and use (it was part of a set which I bought many years ago, consisting of the CLE, 40mm and 90mm lenses and the dedicated flash).

[LarsHP]

6 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I don't think it's a waste,  you will see some difference between the 90mm elmarit-m and the 90mm apo-summicron if you try to find it with some films. 

(...)

I did not say it is a waste. I was only trying to convey some attitudes / philosophies that some people shooting film have posted (generally on the internet).

[spydrxx]

 

i've owned most of them from the 60s thru the early 2000s. In the end I chose to keep the Elmar 90/4. Not a fast lens, but usable on my M AND Barnack bodies and with a Visoflex. Like others said, there isn't a poor one out there, but size and weight may be a consideration for you.

[pgk]

9 hours ago, spydrxx said:

..... but size and weight may be a consideration for you.

The Summicrons handle well but are, for the M, relatively bulky lenses. I like the 90mm Summicrons but no longer own any because they go against my personal view of the compact carriability of an M system. But this is a personal view based on direct experience and my own likes and dislikes. This is hard to acquire appreciation without trying things out. That said, buying a well used Summicron as cheap as possible will, if nothing else, provide direct understanding of how these lenses feel and is unlikely to lose much money and may even gain some if resold at some point (mine did). However if the aperture is not needed and bulk/weight are factors then the Summicron can be ignored and a selection made from f/2.8 or f/4 lenses. I should probably try an f/4 as I rarely, if ever, use my 90mm lenses wide open these days. In the past I have found some of the earlier 90mm lens (such as the 3-element) to be slightly soft wide open when tested, so this is worth bearing in mind, depending on usage.

[T25UFO]

No recommendations yet for the 90mm f1.5 Summilux, maybe that's because:

(a) you need the EVF to focus;

(b) it's too heavy;

(c) it's too large;

(d) it blocks the viewfinder;

(e) it's too expensive.

Apart from these minor points, it's a pretty good lens 😃

[lct]

1 hour ago, T25UFO said:

No recommendations yet for the 90mm f1.5 Summilux, maybe that's because:

(a) you need the EVF to focus;

(b) it's too heavy;

(c) it's too large;

(d) it blocks the viewfinder;

(e) it's too expensive.

(f) you (or i) don't own one.

[a.noctilux]

Not so big 😉

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not mine 😇

[sometimesmaybe]

On 12/2/2022 at 12:30 AM, Ouroboros said:

'Too sharp' is a hackneyed admission that post processing skills need upgrading

never thought about it that way 🤓 but i guess much will depend on the subject of the portrait

'too sharp' is a problem for me when i need to process lots of images and the subject wants/expects a 'flattering' edit (usually female portraits). the editing can become an absolute pain on my GFX100s + GF110mm. i often have a chuckle to myself about using a 100mp camera to only soften / airbrush out the details on my subject's face 😅

i currently like using portrait lenses on my leica that are 'sharp enough' - 7A 75mm. it reduces the workload and gets around my absurd situation of having a sharp camera/lens combo only for me to 'unsharpen' the image in post.

what's 'sharp enough' will be a matter of personal taste and could easily fill another thread on this forum

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[T25UFO]

19 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Not so big 😉

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not mine 😇

Well, same size as the 75mm Noctilux, but both look cumbersome on the M rangefinder.  Still lots of nice photos on the forum with the 75mm Noctilux, but very few with the 90mm Summilux.  Not sure why because same size, same weight, same price.

[catacore]

I read a lot of topics on the 90mm M-mount lenses matter and the conclusion, for me, would be to buy the new APO-Skopar. Even if on fredmiranda I read few guys were unhappy about their APO-Skopars front focussing, I guess if one buys this lens having the return option, then it is worth a try. I guess this is what I'll do, in the end.

Was tempted by Tele-Elmarit-M (11800) "thin" but read it is flaring badly, then by the Summarit, but it is more expensive, build quatily not so great, and no real advantage over any f2.8 variant. To me the VM looks like to obvious choice when size, weight and price are important (alongside IQ, of course).