"The 50mm Summilux ASPH was Designed to Front Focus" <-- Leica NJ Technician. Thoughts?

[eyeheartny]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I have an M11 and 50mm Summilux ASPH (both new and under warranty) back with Leica NJ for service for the second time. As part of the ongoing, intensely frustrating dialogue with them, a technician reported to the tech service manager, who reported to me, that "wide open the 50mm Summilux ASPH was designed to front focus, so it will never be fully accurate at 1.4 because then it would not accurately focus at narrower apertures." Is that complete mumbo-jumbo as it seems to me? Am I being given the runaround by Leica NJ over this? 

My lens was back for the second time in a few weeks because the lens was focusing accurately when moved from minimum focus distance to a target further away, but was front-focusing by 2-3" when moving from the infinity stop to a focus target. Leica initially claimed it was the lens, then on the second examination they said the rangefinder had "focus shift," which is not an accurate description, and then now they're saying the 50mm lens that I sent along with it has to either be optimized for wide-open performance or for closed-down performance to avoid front focus. None of what they're saying makes sense. Now they're also saying that 0.5" of focus is within tolerance, meaning the lens could be front or back focusing by 0.5" and would still be considered within spec. Am I insane for thinking that that's crazy? 0.5" can mean the difference between the eyes being in focus and not in a portrait from 5-6 feet away. I feel like I'm losing my mind every time I talk to them. 

@hmzimelka, is this the kind of garbage they were telling you when your stuff was having issues? I am absolutely blown away at the poor level of service, apparent lack of product knowledge, and total imprecision of the system if this is how they're talking about it. Peter Karbe said lenses can and should be used wide open, but Leica NJ service is saying that we shouldn't expect proper performance wide open without compromising it elsewhere. 

I feel like I'm going insane. For the price of the M11 and 50 Lux, if Leica can't get it to focus accurately wide open without front focusing, they shouldn't be selling these products. I am just at the end of my rope with them. Anyone have thoughts/empathy/guidance? It's the most crazy-making experience I've ever had with a consumer product. 

[Jeff S]

Send it to DAG.  Contact him (Don) if you want to clarify issues or to determine turnaround time.  I trust Don more than NJ, even for warranty work; any cost will be modest.

Jeff

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[84bravo]

My 50mm f1.4 ASPH is tack sharp wide open. I have a number of M bodies and it focuses properly and is sharp with al of them.

[eyeheartny]

55 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Send it to DAG.  Contact him (Don) if you want to clarify issues or to determine turnaround time.  I trust Don more than NJ, even for warranty work; any cost will be modest.

Jeff

Is Don authorized to do warranty work for Leica? I don't want to have to pay someone to fix what Leica should get right themselves. The date of manufacture on the M11 is August 2022 and the 50 Lux is September 2022. I've already had to fight Leica to cover the shipping cost for warranty repair and really don't like the idea that I'd have to pay Don to fix something Leica is claiming they can't fix even though it's a warranty issue. 

[eyeheartny]

55 minutes ago, 84bravo said:

My 50mm f1.4 ASPH is tack sharp wide open. I have a number of M bodies and it focuses properly and is sharp with al of them.

Thanks. As I suspected, some BS and more lies and runaround from Leica. I am *this close* to exiting the system and I've only owned them for a few months. US $13k of gear and they claim it front focuses by design. Disgusting. 

[Jeff S]

14 minutes ago, eyeheartny said:

Is Don authorized to do warranty work for Leica? I don't want to have to pay someone to fix what Leica should get right themselves. The date of manufacture on the M11 is August 2022 and the 50 Lux is September 2022. I've already had to fight Leica to cover the shipping cost for warranty repair and really don't like the idea that I'd have to pay Don to fix something Leica is claiming they can't fix even though it's a warranty issue. 

No, he charges, as I noted. But I’d rather pay a modest sum and have it repaired well.  I described in an old thread about the time I sent my 50 Summilux ASPH to NJ to fix its sticky focus action.  They tried, but the technician who worked on it explained to me that he couldn’t do more without risk, and that it was the nature of the lens. I asked him to just send it back to me.  I called Don, sent it to him, and he had it back to me within 2 weeks, working perfectly, total charge $90, including return shipping. Still focuses smoothly, nine years later.  

Suit yourself.  Only problem now is that Don is much busier… others have learned about him.

Jeff
 

 

[eyeheartny]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

No, he charges, as I noted. But I’d rather pay a modest sum and have it repaired well.  I described in an old thread about the time I sent my 50 Summilux ASPH to NJ to fix its sticky focus action.  They tried, but the technician who worked on it explained to me that he couldn’t do more without risk, and that it was the nature of the lens. I asked him to just send it back to me.  I called Don, sent it to him, and he had it back to me within 2 weeks, working perfectly, total charge $90, including return shipping. Still focuses smoothly, nine years later.  

Suit yourself.  Only problem now is that Don is much busier… others have learned about him.

Jeff
 

 

I’ve heard horror stories about him abandoning peoples projects for months at a time and not returning emails. To be honest I’m nervous about using him due to that. I’ve heard better customer service stories about YYe. It just absolutely yanks my chain to think that I have to incur additional cost to get a lens working at a baseline level of performance. Really undermines my confidence in Leica as a whole if this is how bad their QC and repair services are. 

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, eyeheartny said:

I’ve heard horror stories about him abandoning peoples projects for months at a time and not returning emails. To be honest I’m nervous about using him due to that. I’ve heard better customer service stories about YYe. It just absolutely yanks my chain to think that I have to incur additional cost to get a lens working at a baseline level of performance. Really undermines my confidence in Leica as a whole if this is how bad their QC and repair services are. 

I gave you my experience. And I don’t send emails; I speak directly and clarify expectations in advance. But that’s just how I do business, whether car service, camera repair or whatever.

There are many more ‘horror stories’ IMO about NJ service than about DAG (and none I’m aware of regarding his quality of repair; just delays or communications). As expected, there are also many happy customers for Leica; the nature of customer service and reviews.

Your call.  I made mine long ago and will continue until circumstances change.

Jeff

 

 

[Sandokan]

It was designed before digital cameras.

It was not designed to front focus, but front focus was not a big problem with film.

At f1.4 you soon learn (testing with the EVF) how much you need to move your head forward after rangefinder focusing to get the eyes of the subject in focus instead of their nose. Learn it at 2 and at 3m

[archive_all]

I'm not sure about being designed to front focus but mine is tack sharp at 1.4 on multiple M's and I only focus with the rangefinder. It's been super reliable and the focus direction hasn't mattered. 

[Jeff S]

Be sure that your RF is also well calibrated.

Jeff

[LeicaR10]

Eyeheartny,  First, sorry to hear your lens and rangefinder focus issues.  Second, Leica NJ moved this past summer and its service department is stil in disarray.  It has suffered service issues for at least 5 years for various reasons.  Leica Germany has sent 4 technical teams to help straighten out NJ on 4 seperate occasions of the years.  Based on my decades with Leica cameras and lenses, I do not send any of my gear to Leica NJ for service.  Since your gear is under warranty, I highly recommend you contact Leica Customer Care at Wetzlar (Call them, phone number is on the Leica Germany website) and ask them for a shipping label and instructions for sending your gear to Germany for repair. Your 50 Lux and M11 should focus perfectly.  Leica redesigned the rangerfinder on the M10 and it is very accurate and best ever. The Lux should be spot on for focus.  Be sure to include a letter detailing the focus issues with your gear.  Include photographs as examples if you wish.  Leica Wetzlar will get your gear back up to top performance.  Also tell them Leica NJ has serviced your gear 2 times.  Third, I use DAG for all my M gear when it goes out of warranty.  DAG does not do Leica warranty work. The best thing to do when the time comes, is call Don and speak with him direct. He will give you an idea what it costs for the repair or service.  Tell him when you need the gear back by date.  This is very important.  Some photographers just ship their gear and expect immediate service on M cameras/lenses that need serious service and didn't talk with Don directly and used email.  Do not use email with Don.  He is very busy. Calling is the best way to get your gear serviced.  Be sure to tell him when you need the gear back both the phone and in the instructions for service  Don does superb work, very reasonable and guarantees his work.  I never had a redo with Don unlike Leica NJ.  Hence NJ is off my list. I hope this helps.  r/ Mark

[Bear]

I had this exact same issue with my black chrome lux. Drove me crazy for awhile and made me really question my investment in Leica. Had to shoot everything stopped down which was a shameful waste of a lux. Then i watched this video, tried it, and it solved all my problems. I'm now very happy and very sharp wide open

Edited November 17, 2022 by Bear

[hmzimelka]

6 hours ago, eyeheartny said:

I have an M11 and 50mm Summilux ASPH (both new and under warranty) back with Leica NJ for service for the second time. As part of the ongoing, intensely frustrating dialogue with them, a technician reported to the tech service manager, who reported to me, that "wide open the 50mm Summilux ASPH was designed to front focus, so it will never be fully accurate at 1.4 because then it would not accurately focus at narrower apertures." Is that complete mumbo-jumbo as it seems to me? Am I being given the runaround by Leica NJ over this? 

My lens was back for the second time in a few weeks because the lens was focusing accurately when moved from minimum focus distance to a target further away, but was front-focusing by 2-3" when moving from the infinity stop to a focus target. Leica initially claimed it was the lens, then on the second examination they said the rangefinder had "focus shift," which is not an accurate description, and then now they're saying the 50mm lens that I sent along with it has to either be optimized for wide-open performance or for closed-down performance to avoid front focus. None of what they're saying makes sense. Now they're also saying that 0.5" of focus is within tolerance, meaning the lens could be front or back focusing by 0.5" and would still be considered within spec. Am I insane for thinking that that's crazy? 0.5" can mean the difference between the eyes being in focus and not in a portrait from 5-6 feet away. I feel like I'm losing my mind every time I talk to them. 

@hmzimelka, is this the kind of garbage they were telling you when your stuff was having issues? I am absolutely blown away at the poor level of service, apparent lack of product knowledge, and total imprecision of the system if this is how they're talking about it. Peter Karbe said lenses can and should be used wide open, but Leica NJ service is saying that we shouldn't expect proper performance wide open without compromising it elsewhere. 

I feel like I'm going insane. For the price of the M11 and 50 Lux, if Leica can't get it to focus accurately wide open without front focusing, they shouldn't be selling these products. I am just at the end of my rope with them. Anyone have thoughts/empathy/guidance? It's the most crazy-making experience I've ever had with a consumer product. 

I can sympathise with the disheartening and honestly unbelievable interaction we, and others, have had with Leica products and the support. 

I've not had an interaction with Leica Germany where they got my camera, or lenses. I've only dealt with the Leica Rep in South Africa. It's super frustrating that at every level of interaction the people I try explain my issues to have no idea what I'm talking about or eventually get a vague idea but don't really understand. Leica Germany just tells me to send it to Germany and then they will "check" it. 

This rather trivial sounding task of quickly sending it in while I was in Cape Town 2 weeks back,  meant that I would not have a camera back until end of Feb 2023 at its earliest, and most likely with its return a letter saying everything is in spec. I did test another M11 while I was there and it showed the same behaviour as my M11 and presumably yours with regard to focus error based on direction focus is pulled. This just confirmed the idea that I shouldn't waste my time sending it in.

The lens can and probably does contribute to this error, but I know something isn't right with my M11 because my M3 doesn't show any rangefinder patch lag when focus direction is changed, whereas my M11 and the other one it does.

 

Anyways. To answer your questions... I do get the feeling that Leica support sometimes just says whatever in hopes that it goes over the head of the client and with that denies fault to anything. In my support cases with Leica, especially in defending my case with my M10M's sensor bifurcation, their first line of defence has always been to blame the client. The general impression I get from Leica Germany, and initially from Leica SA, is that Leica can do no wrong. The latter has changed considerably. However, I've not had my equipment sent to Leica Germany, and at this point I'm more inclined to sell my equipment that to trust them to do their work correctly. I'm envious for all those that have such great experiences with Leica service. Mine has been horrible.

I recently read a post here where a chap had a 50 APO with what looked like a decanted optical assembly or a little swing causing the right side to be blurry compared to the left at infinity focus. Sent to Leica, and it was "in-spec". To me that isn't good enough. 

The Summilux 50mm ASPH should absolutely not have noticeable focus shift and therefore no need to have any focus optimisation other than wide open focus. It is after all a great lens at f/1.4. I have tried a few copies already. The last "new out the box" had a strong front focus so much so that the rangefinder patch matched perfectly at infinity and the lens' hard stop, but it would not produce a sharp image until f/2.8 or smaller. Another used Summilux I tried was spot on at f/1.4, with a less severe mid zone dip than the new lens, but unfortunately this lens had an oily aperture and the front optical assembly had a tiny amount of play.

I tried recently ordered a new Leica Summilux FLE 35/1.4, which was front focusing slightly with a little focus shift. This was annoying but I could live with that, but it was unsymmetrical left/right in performance. I gave that back.  I then also tried a new APO Summicron 75mm which was front focusing so strong that the subject wouldn't be sharp even at f/8. Rangefinder and infinity hard stop coincided perfectly, but the lens was a blurry mess at infinity and everywhere else. 

These problems were driving me insane too. Especially since the Leica kit was a huge financial implication. For the moment, I've just reserved myself to use the camera as is until I visit Germany hopefully next year some time, and afford myself to trade it in or sell it there. Until then, I need to try not let the product and brand get me down. I can't even use an ND 3.0 10-stop filter with this camera and my Summicron-M 50mm V since it leaks too much light. 🤦🏻‍♂️ 
 

Edited November 17, 2022 by hmzimelka

[hmzimelka]

19 minutes ago, Bear said:

I had this exact same issue with my black chrome lux. Drove me crazy for awhile and made me really question my investment in Leica. Had to shoot everything stopped down which was a shameful waste of a lux. Then i watched this video, tried it, and it solved all my problems. I'm now very happy and very sharp wide open

I've tried 5 Leica M11 cameras and all of them, to my surprise, had accurate rangefinders. This has been my experience with perfectly accurate focusing Leica lenses from the 50's and 60's, and all my Voigtlander lenses. The only thing that varied a lot is every new Leica lens I've tried over the last year. I'ver kept only my new Summicron 50mm which is the only lens that focuses accurately, but even then doesn't quite reach infinity at the hard stop and rangefinder patch confirms this. It's very minor. Plus it came with missing paint from the factory. So Leica QC is really sub-optimal in my experience, and that the OP most likely has a lens that just isn't the perfect sample it should be for the price.

Edited November 17, 2022 by hmzimelka

[darylgo]

@eyeheartny With similar experiences and frustrations as you describe I now send everything through Leica LA.  You can request your equipment be sent to Germany, normally I will reserve that if New Jersey is unable to fix an issue once or twice.  I’ve also had good experiences with NJ, so it’s rather random how well a service is rendered.  
It is valuable to have a service person in a Leica Store help me, they have experienced many repairs and they know the system.  It is equally frustrating to them when resending multiple times.  AFAIK there will always be frustrations with Leica repair, Jeff’s suggestion of DAG and the cost may well be worth saving you the loss of selling your equipment.  I hope it works out well for you, Leica is a pleasure to use once these hurdles are overcome.  

[MarkP]

I must say I'm somewhat surprised about focus shift  the current 1.4/50 Summilux ASPH. I have never had focus shift issues and i don't recall it previously being raised as a design issue. I got rid of my 1.5/50 ZM-Sonnar years ago because of focus shift inherent to the sooner design.  Allthough I liked how the lens rendered, it had to be optimised for 1.5 or >2.8 and drove me nuts.

I'm not at all doubting that your lenses display focus shift but I don't believe it's intrinsic to the design.

Very frustrating for you
Mark

 

 

[Jk1002]

I would not recommend third party repairs on brand new under warranty products. That may void the warranty and you might have bigger problems later where you would want to use the official warranty.

Can you run tests with a tripod? Your body might actually be moving a bit back and forward while taking pictures.

Also could you post samples? If you recompose wide open that will mess things up I would think.

Best

JK

 

[lct]

Never seen focus shift on the 50/1.4 asph either. Mine is spot on on the M11 but it was designed for digital. Should be the same for the OP but, dare i say?, i see many people playing with rulers here. Rulers are not the life folks. If you feel that your lens has focus issues, check it out in real world tests before risking a nervous breakdown. Nothing personal of course 

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[archive_all]

14 hours ago, eyeheartny said:

the lens was focusing accurately when moved from minimum focus distance to a target further away, but was front-focusing by 2-3" when moving from the infinity stop to a focus target.  

This is the part that sounds more odd regarding what Leica NJ thinks is acceptable. Is something out of adjustment with the FLE part of the lens or is it the bodies RF? I don't have an M11 but fairly recently checked one out in store and put my lens on it. Shot a few images back and forth with my M10 and both were as accurate. Of course that's one M11 sample. Do you have any other M lenses or bodies to reference against?