Lightroom and MacOS Ventura 13 Compatibility

[marchyman]

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3 hours ago, Alberti said:

It ismpossible not to have an external catalogue (and raw file storage): with the current pricing, even 512Gb is only available in the top range Apple machines. No place for a catalogue.

First let me say the issue was a bug that has since been fixed by Adobe.   With that out of the way....

The issue was with the location of the catalog.  Original image files could live elsewhere.  My library, for example, contains data about 55K images.  The images themselves live on an external SSD.  Previews are sized for my 5K monitor.  The catalog and the 6 or 7 supporting files uses about  115 GB of storage.  114 GB of that are for previews.    Depending upon what else the computer is being used for a catalog of that size could fit on a 512 GB drive.  The original files would need to live elsewhere.  If a smaller preview size is selected such a catalog could conceivably fit on a 256 GB drive (but I'd not want to do that).

I have never had issues with LrC with the catalog on my main drive and the images on an external drive.

 

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[Alberti]

Indeed the iMac 2017 Retina/Fusion I had was fixed with troubles. I never upgraded the internals - I have a Thunderbolt SSD and startup is 35 secs. Externally I have 2x2Tb and some backups.

But LR CC is NOT fast at all. [LR perpetual was]

iMac problems_ Those that did replace the 1 or 2 Tb HDD with a SATA-SSD, and at the same time the 24Gb/100Gb Fusion drive master internally: with I think it was when installing Monterey that some original boot data from the original SSD was required. I heard it was overcome by having an external SSD with a Apple-pcie socket adapter to a standard M2-SSD socket: once the original drive was found somewhere even external on USB-C the update would be succesful. What a fuss. i never tried it and left my iMac as a dodo machine.
Now on to a Studio, I keep my fingers crossed.🤞   I selected the LG monitor (I do not want a 27”). Two hands with crossed fingers . .🤞🤞

[M11 for me]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb Alberti:

Indeed the iMac 2017 Retina/Fusion I had was fixed with troubles. I never upgraded the internals - I have a Thunderbolt SSD and startup is 35 secs. Externally I have 2x2Tb and some backups.

But LR CC is NOT fast at all. [LR perpetual was]

iMac problems_ Those that did replace the 1 or 2 Tb HDD with a SATA-SSD, and at the same time the 24Gb/100Gb Fusion drive master internally: with I think it was when installing Monterey that some original boot data from the original SSD was required. I heard it was overcome by having an external SSD with a Apple-pcie socket adapter to a standard M2-SSD socket: once the original drive was found somewhere even external on USB-C the update would be succesful. What a fuss. i never tried it and left my iMac as a dodo machine.
Now on to a Studio, I keep my fingers crossed.🤞   I selected the LG monitor (I do not want a 27”). Two hands with crossed fingers . .🤞🤞

That is my experience too. It was a full mistake, when in 2017 I bought an upgraded Mac (from 2 to 4TB). This was NOT an Apple feature as the Apple at that time offered a max of 2TB only. As you describe problems started with Monterey. I remember that I had to bring my Mac into the store (it was DQ in Switzerland) and they had to reconfigure the 4TB memory. Subsequently I had around 3.8TB plus a second separate portion of about 0.2TB. This worked then well. Until Ventura came a few days ago.

After I have moved all my internal data (about 3TB) onto external 8TB hard drive and after I have installed Adobe products from scratch on my new Mac Studio (after carefully studying which files to take onto the new machine in order to maintain all Adobe presets and Adobe settings). After I was persuaded that everything was working fine on the new Mac Studio I wanted to prepare the "old" 2017 Mac as spare machine. So I deleted the whole 4TB SSD and wanted to re-install Ventura (Contr+alt+r) that ended up with a blinking question mark which seemingly is the worst situation that could happen. So I got fully rid of that machine. 

Now I am somehow proud that I manged a fully new installation which I never did before. Up to today I just used TimeMachine with any new Mac.  

Now I have only the System files (incl. Ventura) and all the APPS on the internal ½TB SSD. This includes LR catalogue and all other data related to adobe products. All other data (mainly my Raw-photographs) are on external disks (8TB drive). TimeMachine took about 20h to make the first full backup (internal SSD plus external drive). I was relieved when it was finally done.

Now I hope to have a stable machine for the next few years.

[Ba Erv]

Just a note on Ventura.  It doesn't play well with exFAT formatted drives; that includes SD cards.  You'll see reduced read and write speeds and at times failure to read the cards completely.  The only way to avoid this is to stay on Monterey/Big Sur until Apple releases a bug fix.  These screen shots are from the same SD card (ProGrade UHS-II 300Mb/s) on the same computer (M1 MacBook Pro 16) running Ventura 13.1.  Only difference is the formatting. The top is exFAT and the bottom MacOS Journaled.

 

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Edited December 17, 2022 by Ba Erv

[zeitz]

2 hours ago, Ba Erv said:

until Apple releases a bug fix

Thanks for the useful, quantified information.  Do you think Apple cares enough about exFAT SD cards to change Ventura?  Have you tested CF Express cards?

[Ba Erv]

2 hours ago, zeitz said:

Thanks for the useful, quantified information.  Do you think Apple cares enough about exFAT SD cards to change Ventura?  Have you tested CF Express cards?

It's anyone's guess what Apple will do in regards to the bug fix; they could patch it in a week or ignore it forever.  I haven't tested CF cards specifically, but other users are reportedly having the same issue with all external drives with exFAT formatting (SSD, USB, etc.). This is just one of MANY problems with Ventura 13.1.  Another wonderful feature is you can't run a third party VPN app without crashing iCloud and System Settings.  

[Ba Erv]

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Just as a follow up I downgraded to Monterey 12.6.2 from Ventura 13.1 and repeated the SD card disk test on the same card formatted exFAT in camera (Leica Q2M).   Here's the result.

 

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[Alberti]

Apple is very concious about security, and vulnerabilities. The reason to stop supporting media with a boot-sector is I think one of them. So they ditched the spinning disks. The new approach is APFS with the boot-sector information directly at the file; the interlinking is for an SSD faster but also an attempt to hijack the drive is 'impossible'. The exFAT probably is in this history area as well.

• As regards older drives, I have seen that cables make all the differences that drives are blamed for.  Some cables will allow just the USB-A speed, while the same drive on a faster 'real modern' cable will reach SATA speeds.

I consider creating a volume on the internal SSD with a quotum of 330 Gb for the catalogue and the previews, the latter being the most important feature of LR. A volume dedicates space better I understand. The internal drive reaches 6.300 Mbs write and 5.200 Mb/s read. 

I now have the 2TB on a USB-C drive that maxes read at 830 Mb/s write and 750 MB/s read; but I also have a Thunderbolt 3 drive and will put it there to just improve the responsiveness in reading - it goes fast at 1.900 Mb/s and 2.400 Mb/s read. With a TB4 drive things can go better still.

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[Alberti]

Ah you meant SD-card. yes that is an issue. On my previous iMac the SD card often was not recognized; the Apple Support taught me to turn the computer off, take the power cable out for 10 secs (so some hardware memory would reset) and then it worked again. 

250 Mb/s is not bad. .  what type/brand is it?

Maybe an external dedicated card reader will give better support? 

[Ba Erv]

7 minutes ago, Alberti said:

Apple is very concious about security, and vulnerabilities. The reason to stop supporting media with a boot-sector is I think one of them. So they ditched the spinning disks. The new approach is APFS with the boot-sector information directly at the file; the interlinking is for an SSD faster but also an attempt to hijack the drive is 'impossible'. The exFAT probably is in this history area as well.

• As regards older drives, I have seen that cables make all the differences that drives are blamed for.  Some cables will allow just the USB-A speed, while the same drive on a faster 'real modern' cable will reach SATA speeds.

I consider creating a volume on the internal SSD with a quotum of 330 Gb for the catalogue and the previews, the latter being the most important feature of LR. A volume dedicates space better I understand. The internal drive reaches 6.300 Mbs write and 5.200 Mb/s read. 

I now have the 2TB on a USB-C drive that maxes read at 830 Mb/s write and 750 MB/s read; but I also have a Thunderbolt 3 drive and will put it there to just improve the responsiveness in reading - it goes fast at 1.900 Mb/s and 2.400 Mb/s read. With a TB4 drive things can go better still.

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Limiting security vulnerabilities is an admirable endeavor but killing off the primary file transfer mechanism for photographers is pretty short sighted.  The card tested here is a ProGrade UHS-II 300mb/s 64G.  I tested two of the same cards with similar results.  I tested both an internal SD reader incorporated into a MacBook Pro M1 16 and external Apple USB-C to SD card reader and well as a Lexar UHS-II USB-A reader attached to a T4 hub; little difference in performance.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Ba Erv

[Adam Bonn]

This is interesting for me as I’m quite new to mac and finding my way… Monterey and my M10 files with the inbuilt SD reader on my 2021 MacBook Pro worked just fine for me.

I upgraded to Ventura and the M10R pretty much in the same week and it’s been a bit of a clucking disaster re performance.

I get that the 10R files are bigger and it’ll all take longer and that’s fine…. But often the Mac just seems to give up reading the SD card… particularly if I’m deleting files straight from the card (yes I get some folks say never to do that), I just get an error saying that the object can’t be found.

I’m not talking colossal amounts of DNGs here… 130ish… cmd+a then cmd+shift+del and it’ll delete about a third of them and give up…

The Ventura  x.0.1 updated helped with speed a bit, to be fair LR’s been robust enough, just slow.

I contacted apple support who’s solutions amounted too 1. Format SD in apple format 🙄 2. Reinstall Mac OS

Today I installed the x.1 Ventura update and reset the SMC (whatever that is, but thanks google) and that seemed to help…

I was able to add about 5gb of DNGs to the card (from a windows pc I still have), then delete them all in one go, without having to select all/delete three times to clear the card.

I used the blackmagicadesign disk speed test app and got 57mp/s write and 87mb/s read on exFat UHS-i sandisk extreme pro cards that I use. (Those speeds seem about right for the spec when not used with sandisk’s propriety sd tech card readers)

There was no meaningful difference testing again with a usb-c sd reader dongle 

Amusingly I also tested some UHS-ii cards and the read speeds were much better (160ish, yet waaaay of the quoted spec) but the writes speeds were abysmal (like 20mb/s 😳)

I appreciate some folks never delete SD files from the computer and others buy the fastest cards they can… for me I don’t really see the point in using UHS-ii cards in UHS-i cameras (I doubt Leica really tested with UHS-ii back in like 2016 when they were spec’ing the 10/10R chipset) and I just delete files from the card and every now and them I might overwrite format them in SDcardFormater.

After years on windows and being fairly savvy to its foibles and their work a rounds I can honestly say I won’t be downloading anything new OS related from apple again in a hurry.

 

[jaapv]

On 12/17/2022 at 5:23 PM, Ba Erv said:

It's anyone's guess what Apple will do in regards to the bug fix; they could patch it in a week or ignore it forever.  I haven't tested CF cards specifically, but other users are reportedly having the same issue with all external drives with exFAT formatting (SSD, USB, etc.). This is just one of MANY problems with Ventura 13.1.  Another wonderful feature is you can't run a third party VPN app without crashing iCloud and System Settings.  

Nord VPN runs without any problems. 

[jaapv]

On 12/17/2022 at 12:02 PM, Ba Erv said:

Just a note on Ventura.  It doesn't play well with exFAT formatted drives;

Indeed it does. It managed to kill off two of my drives. They will only be recognized by a PC now, and as they are invisible on Mac cannot be repaired by Disk Utility. So I ditched them after pulling off the data on a PC and replaced them by a couple of new drives which I erased to Mac Journaled immediately.

[Adam Bonn]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Indeed it does. It managed to kill off two of my drives. They will only be recognized by a PC now, and as they are invisible on Mac cannot be repaired by Disk Utility. So I ditched them after pulling off the data on a PC and replaced them by a couple of new drives which I erased to Mac Journaled immediately.

it's the major pain in the arse that it doesn't play nicely with exFAT formatted SD cards that's really pissing me off.

I have one exFAT drive that I use for my (increasingly occasional) need to copy things to/from legacy Windows and MacOS, this still worked with Ventura but the data transfer speed was horrifically slow (even in the context of HDD), but it at least managed it...

After almost unanimous advice that I should go to Mac (which I finally did at the start of the year), this exFAT support decision might be the thing that sends me back to Windows, for me all the Mac niceties become meaningless pretty quickly when my computer doesn't like my camera's SD cards... 

....of course one could could probably take the stance that camera OEMs should start to move away from legacy formats, but that's not very helpful today

[jaapv]

I use a Satechi type C dock that reads SD cards well and Ventura has no problems with Mass Storage from the camera either. It will probably do fine with any decent USB reader too.

[Adam Bonn]

9 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I use a Satechi type C dock that reads SD cards well and Ventura has no problems with Mass Storage from the camera either.

Strange. My type C dock offers no improvement over the on-board SD reader. I thought about buying the SanDisk reader with its property UHS-i card reading technology (even though that sounds like snake oil to me...)

The other strange thing is that my exFAT drives work robustly (albeit glacially*)  with Ventura but apparently yours do not...


*Climate change means that phrase probably needs retiring from common lexicon...

[Ba Erv]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

Nord VPN runs without any problems. 

I couldn't even open the system settings until I deleted and emptied ExpressVPN from the trash.  Lots of reports on similar problems at MacRumors.

[jaapv]

As I said no problems with Nord VPN whatever on both Ventura machines. 

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[Alberti]

Regarding the SD cards, there is a program called SD Formatter. This is made by the industry organisation.

It greatly improves the matching of a card to the SD-reader.

There is a thread on ‘whch card to use’ and the use of the tools to format a card is known to increase the match with the computer.

[jaapv]

That figures - it is my go-to image delete program I hardly ever format in-camera.