21mm on Leica M (any M) without EVF, OVF

[northernlights]

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I just sold the SL and moved back to the M240 for a smaller form factor. I predominately shoot street and sometimes come landscape (I also use ND filters).

i use a 21mm. 

How many frequent WA (significantly <28mm) users on rangefinder shoot without the EVF (whether EVF2, Visoflex 020 or Visoflex 2).

For those who eventually got an external finder, can also share their thought process towards the decision to get an EVF and the length of time without the EVF before they succumbed. 

Thanks. 

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[a.noctilux]

Net benefit of no-EVF-LV is short, no time lag shutter release.

21mm lenses exist since 1958 (Super-Angulon 4/21), and thousands of people use 21mm lens with or without external OVF.

I use happily M with ext. VF for so long that I don't need it for loose framing.

 

 

[Luke_Miller]

My M9M has neither Live View nor Provision for an EVF so I use the Frankenfinder (the finder for the Tri-Elmar) with my 21 & 24 mm Elmarit-Ms. Focus using rangefinder and compose with finder.  Quick and easy.

[npsjr]

I have a 21 SEM and although I have an EVF for my M10R, I seldom ever use the EVF. Instead, I use my 21mm Leica Brightline Finder. Works very well. Love the view from it.

I also recently acquire a WATE. Not sure yet whether I will use the frankenfinder that came with it or my EVF on my M10R.

[RayD28]

I use a 21mm Brightline Finder with my digital and film Ms, and a 28mm BF finder with my M3.  A wide angle lens of course has a large depth of field so focusing is generally not an issue.  With an M with a meter you look in the VF to set exposure and then go back to the external viewfinder.  For me it's no big deal.  

The drawback of anything external, EVF or analogue, is it might get knocked off and lost.  

[anonymous]

One of my favorite ways to shoot 21mm and 24mm is range focusing.  If I have the light I can throw the lens to f/8 or f/11 — then put the camera in interesting places.  I don’t even look through the range finder.

[a.noctilux]

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46 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

The drawback of anything external, EVF or analogue, is it might get knocked off and lost.

Some of my external OVF do have locking device to prevent this lost.

Older Leitz VF have slight adjustment to retain the VF on hot shoe, so tailoring the fitting is a must.

Never loose this one after decades of use ...

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[Gobert]

I’ve sold my 21 SEM. But when I had it, I never used the external viewfinder. Just take the whole finder and you have a fairly estimate of the 21 angle.

[RayD28]

55 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Some of my external OVF do have locking device to prevent this lost.

Older Leitz VF have slight adjustment to retain the VF on hot shoe, so tailoring the fitting is a must.

Never loose this one after decades of use ...

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My 28mm OVF has a lock that works well.  I've knocked it off pulling the camera out of my bag a few times.  Fortunately it fell right back into the bag!  

[northernlights]

Thanks everyone. Seems all except @Gobert are using an external OVF. 
 It’s never been intuitive for me, coming from a DSLR and then mirrorless Fuji, Sony to look through an external VF which I cannot use to focus or set exposure compensation or look at the shutter speed displayed to estimate my exposure as I shoot spot. I find the 2 step of going to an OVF and then going back to evaluate exposure too slow. 
like @Gobert I am hoping to continue to ‘imagine’ what the composition will be outside of the 28mm lines. I have just gotten the m240 for a week and have not used the LV which I set to focus assist by magnifying. I used this a lot on the SL and TL2 which I had and sold. On the TL2, I eventually bought the visoflex 020 as I didn’t like shooting through the LCD. The thing is prior to the SL, I had previous m240s and I briefly used the EVF2 that i bought used in an m240 set in 2017. But I had then never had lenses wider than the 24mm that I could easily ‘imagine’. I doubt I will pay for an EVF2 today (quality perspective) having experienced the visoflex 020 and the SL’s amazing EVF. The visoflex 020’s will keep its demand and value at least because of the M10s, TL users. The EVF2 whether Leica or Olympus ones are almost exclusively m240 use. There will just not be so many m240s in the next 5 years.

Edited October 2, 2022 by northernlights

[Punkrockemo]

I have been pondering similar thing for a while (asked simular question in the M10 section).

Something i saw the other day was a somone raised issue that when using the 21/24/28 whilst wearing glasses they could not see full 21mm field of view. Is this something other glasses wearers have experienced. Is it limited to the 21/24/28 viewfinder or typical of all externnal viewfinders.   

 

[sarav]

I consider the 28 internal frame as target for the main subject and then take a look at the rest of the viewfinder. I have an external viewfinder also but I never use it.

Edited October 3, 2022 by sarav

[AndreasG]

Only occasionally I use an EVF with my 21mm Elmarit and even 18mm Zeiss ZM Distagon. After a while you get a feeling what the lens catches.

[northernlights]

4 hours ago, AndreasG said:

Only occasionally I use an EVF with my 21mm Elmarit and even 18mm Zeiss ZM Distagon. After a while you get a feeling what the lens catches.

Thanks. I get it

[dbeids]

I do both depending on circumstances. I use the Visoflex 020 when appropriate…I find it easy to use and focus in spite of its well documented shortcomings. 
 

When there’s no time to set up the 020 I just guess using the 28 frame lines. With a little experience it’s pretty intuitive. 
 

the important thing is to take pictures!

[KarimelKrunch]

19 hours ago, Punkrockemo said:

I have been pondering similar thing for a while (asked simular question in the M10 section).

Something i saw the other day was a somone raised issue that when using the 21/24/28 whilst wearing glasses they could not see full 21mm field of view. Is this something other glasses wearers have experienced. Is it limited to the 21/24/28 viewfinder or typical of all externnal viewfinders.   

 

Hi, for eyeglass wearers, being able to see the framelines in the camera VF or an external finder depends on things like the thickness of the photographer's lenses and the frame size of their eyeglasses. For myself, I can't see the 28mm framelines through the VF. I use a 21mm lens with a Voigtlander external OVF. This works well for me because I zone focus and can see the framelines easily through the bright line finder. If I need to meter I have no problem looking through the camera VF. When I use a 21mm I'm usually not in a rush. If you're shooting digital, you can shoot without an external VF for a bit and see how it goes; but if you feel like you're missing something, or want more critical framing, you can always pick up a finder to try out. You might just be fine without an external finder. Sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's annoying to use.

Edited October 3, 2022 by KarimelKrunch

[Luke_Miller]

21 hours ago, northernlights said:

  I find the 2 step of going to an OVF and then going back to evaluate exposure too slow. 

I go the other way. Focus, check exposure, compose using external optical finder, and shoot.  Just like the early Leica rangefinder bodies where the rangefinder window was separate from the viewing window.

[spydrxx]

I occasionally use an external Voigtlander finder with my 21, but often not. I can pretty well visualize what will be encompassed in my shot and have no issue with some cropping if need be. As far as the process of exposure determination, focussing, etc - I usually take an incident reading once early on, and adjust as needed during the day; I either zone focus and walk into the scene for maximum sharpness, or use the camera's rf. To me all these steps are second nature and take zero time. IMHO practice makes perfect.

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[RexGig0]

Here is an interview with Alan Schaller, in which he describes using a 24mm lens, using the camera’s viewfinder, without an external EVF or OVF. Notably, he wears eyeglasses while shooting, which limits the field of view that one can see through the viewfinder, and did much of his acclaimed work with the Type 246 Monochrom, which has a viewfinder that shows less of the world than the M10’s viewfinder.

I have captured treasured images, with a 21mm f/4.5 Zeiss ZM lens, without the benefit of an EVF or external OVF. When photographing people, and other three-dimensional subjects, it is necessary to keep them well away from the edges of the frame, anyway, so, if they can be seen, in the viewfinder window, they are likely to be where I want them to appear, in the image.

I have a 21mm Leica Bright Line viewfinder, but have rarely used it. I will use Live View, on the LCD, occasionally, when framing is critical, with my 18mm to 28mm lenses.

[RexGig0]

21 hours ago, Punkrockemo said:

I have been pondering similar thing for a while (asked simular question in the M10 section).

Something i saw the other day was a somone raised issue that when using the 21/24/28 whilst wearing glasses they could not see full 21mm field of view. Is this something other glasses wearers have experienced. Is it limited to the 21/24/28 viewfinder or typical of all externnal viewfinders.   

 

Eyeglasses do limit what one can see through the viewfinder. The distance of the eyeglass lenses, from the eyeball, is a factor. The thickness of the eyeglass lenses is a factor. These two factors vary, with the individual shooter. Different M cameras will have differing fields of view, adding another factor. 

Let us keep in mind that one does not generally want the subject to be too near the edges of the frame, anyway. Experience can help us learn how to compose images, when we cannot see the same field of of view as the lens.

My previous post, in this discussion, mentions Alan Schaller, who wear eyeglasses, and is best known for his 24mm images, many of which were shot with the M Type 246 Monochrom, with a viewfinder that sees less of the world than M10-series and M11 cameras.

When using an 18mm, 21mm, or 24mm lens, I am likely to be busier ensuring that the camera is level, than in the framing of the shot. I have been generally pleased with my 21mm images, captured without using an external EVF or OVF. (I have had much less time using the 18m and 24mm lenses; still learning.)

With 28mm lenses, I have generally used the entire view, within the viewfinder, to frame the shot.

Many of my wide-angle shots are taken, without looking through any viewfinder. Point the camera, mentally frame the image, adjust the focus distance and aperture, to set the DOF, if necessary, and shoot. 

I am not pretending to be any kind of expert. These thoughts are worth what you paid for them. 😉