Shutter lag comments from Jesko von Oeynhausen

[PeterGA]

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1 hour ago, 105012 said:

I am sure this is in jest, if not it surely misses the point 😀

Missed the point? "Yeah naaah"  as we say ...

For sure I am having a joking crack at the logic of what you are putting out there- as a long term user of manual and digital Leica M's - some of the stuff I am reading on here about 'shutter lag' can only be treated as a joke by anyone who has half a clue - like DOH if your camera is switched off it takes time to get it going again...and if you dont like it - put it on dont switch off mode- rocket science- absolute rocket science....

you are right a manual camera is always on if you don't have to worry about metering, film advance, running out of frames, changing film... etc etc etc etc  - big if unless all you do is shoot to 'sunny 16' and only ever need to shoot 30 frames in the sunny sun...

 

The M11 is the best M ever and I've owned and used the lot.

Pete

 

 

 

 

[elmars]

One thing is for sure: The person behind the camera is the slowest part of the show, not the camera. And: Does anyone remember shooting with a Hasselblad 500? Years of operation till taking the picture. But there a millions of fascinating photos taken with this camera (including portraits with blinking people).

Having said that: Of course Leica should speed the M up to the limit. The M11 needs a new shutter although the existing one is very fast (practically the same as the M10 - nobody complained about the M10) and fast enough. But it could be faster with simpler shutter operation.

Edited July 4, 2022 by elmars

[LocalHero1953]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

The leaf shutter’s operation is: close-open-close-open. Sounds familiar 😉?

Sounds not at all familiar - unless comparing to, say, a Rollei TLR. The Q2 sound and feel are instant and barely perceptible. The SL2-S, which I also have, sounds and feels instant and quiet. The M11 sounds and feels not at all instant, but quiet-ish (quieter than the SL2-S).

The question that still puzzles me is why the M11 has to be this different, when they clearly got it right in the SL series.

Edited July 4, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[didier]

14 hours ago, SrMi said:

Which digital M are you using? 

All measurements and Leica’s communication show that the difference in shutter lag vs. M10 is insignificant.

I used a M(240) and now a M10M

I love the M10M, but as @105012also pointed out, an analog M gives me the feeling I better control the decisive moment. If the M11 is less responsive, this would be a real problem for me.

I consciously / unconsciously developped a way to manage this when shooting candid portraits, by shooting 4 or 5 pics instead of one in analog times 

 

 

[lct]

Leica should find a way to shorten the M11's shutter sound in single shot mode. The M240's value in classic mode (210ms) is OK for me but the M11's (320ms) feels too long.

[Fotoklaus]

Am 2.7.2022 um 23:00 schrieb hdmesa:

I find it strange that he blames the lag only on metering when clearly part of the delay is caused by having to close the M11 shutter before it can open again to begin the exposure.

My old Rollei SLX seems to be faster. Shutter and aperture open (to have a bright finder), press the release button, Shutter closes, Aperture closes, (big!) mirror swings up, exposure,

mirror down, shutter open, aperture open. Aperture and shutter driven by two linear motors in the Lens.

But that was 1973 :-)

[hdmesa]

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6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The question that still puzzles me is why the M11 has to be this different, when they clearly got it right in the SL series.

The larger size of the SL cameras probably allows for a different shutter mechanism and larger motor to move it around.

42 minutes ago, lct said:

Leica should find a way to shorten the M11's shutter sound in single shot mode. The M240's value in classic mode (210ms) is OK for me but the M11's (320ms) feels too long.

Agreed. I have to wonder if letting the shutter take so long to reopen in single shot mode is a firmware error.

[lct]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

I have to wonder if letting the shutter take so long to reopen in single shot mode is a firmware error.

Could be the only way Leica found to keep the shutter noise at similar level as current M10's perhaps? Just wondering as i have no experience with M10 cameras.

[SrMi]

When looking at the numbers that Jesko, RedDotForum, or others provide, we do not know how they compare unless they have been run with the same methodology. E.g., IR measures M9’s shutter lag as 125ms. I have not heard from M9 owners that they have issues catching the decisive moment. 

The only confirmation of whether the shutter lag is or isn’t an issue can come from M11 owners who have been using it extensively in situations where shutter lag could matter.

 

[LocalHero1953]

I never had a problem myself with shutter lag with the M9 or M240 in normal shutter mode.

I only used the M240 in liveview mode with the add-on EVF; that was a complete mess because the EVF lagged so far behind the real world. I only used it for still life or macro. 

[SrMi]

19 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I never had a problem myself with shutter lag with the M9 or M240 in normal shutter mode.

I only used the M240 in liveview mode with the add-on EVF; that was a complete mess because the EVF lagged so far behind the real world. I only used it for still life or macro. 

Thanks for the comment. Likely, you would not have issues with M11 in RF or LV mode.

[LocalHero1953]

14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Thanks for the comment. Likely, you would not have issues with M11 in RF or LV mode.

Yes - I have already posted here or elsewhere that I checked the M11 in store by taking a shot while panning - I found no discernible lag.
It was the extended sound/feel of the shutter that disturbed me, not lag.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

When looking at the numbers that Jesko, RedDotForum, or others provide, we do not know how they compare unless they have been run with the same methodology. E.g., IR measures M9’s shutter lag as 125ms. I have not heard from M9 owners that they have issues catching the decisive moment. 

The only confirmation of whether the shutter lag is or isn’t an issue can come from M11 owners who have been using it extensively in situations where shutter lag could matter.

 

I don't have any issue with M11 lag. What we're now commenting about is the delay to re-open the shutter at the end of a single shot sequence makes that sequence 33% longer than it needs to be. What a lot of M11 users are calling "lag" is simply the long stapler sound of a single exposure sequence. Even in continuous-low, the images are taken so rapidly that I can't take fewer than two shots. The shutter exposure sequence in single shot mode needs to be as fast as it is in continuous modes.

Edited July 4, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Could be the only way Leica found to keep the shutter noise at similar level as current M10's perhaps? Just wondering as i have no experience with M10 cameras.

To my (aging) ear, I can't tell much difference in the sound level between single shot and continuous. In any case, I think I would find a louder but faster single shot exposure sequence to be more satisfying. My M4-P shutter click is pretty loud compared to my M11, but it's also super fast, which makes it more satisfying, IMO.

[Olaf_ZG]

Totally off-topic, but I am sincerely interested: when canisofu brings out a new cam, do they have similar discussions?

[hdmesa]

16 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Totally off-topic, but I am sincerely interested: when canisofu brings out a new cam, do they have similar discussions?

Yes. Things like:

• When someone switches from EFCS (two shutter clicks) to mechanical shutter (four shutter clicks) they want to know why it sounds like two exposures instead of one are happening
• Issues with shutter shock in mechanical shutter mode affecting sharpness at certain shutter speeds
• Which shutter modes are which bit-images and why (reduced to 12-bit in electronic shutter high speed modes, etc.)
• And so on

But you hear fewer complaints about shutter noise in general because most non-Leica mirrorless cameras come set to EFCS mode, which is very fast to complete the exposure cycle. And shutters in most non-M cameras are highly dampened these days – perhaps more so than is physically possible inside an M body.

Edited July 4, 2022 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

38 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I don't have any issue with M11 lag. What we're now commenting about is the delay to re-open the shutter at the end of a single shot sequence makes that sequence 33% longer than it needs to be. What a lot of M11 users are calling "lag" is simply the long stapler sound of a single exposure sequence. Even in continuous-low, the images are taken so rapidly that I can't take fewer than two shots. The shutter exposure sequence in single shot mode needs to be as fast as it is in continuous modes.

Glad to hear we are now talking “only” acoustic cosmetics 😉.

[SrMi]

7 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yes. Things like:

• When someone switches from EFCS (two shutter clicks) to mechanical shutter (four shutter clicks) they want to know why it sounds like two exposures instead of one are happening
• Issues with shutter shock in mechanical shutter mode affecting sharpness at certain shutter speeds
• Which shutter modes are which bit-images and why (reduced to 12-bit in electronic shutter high speed modes, etc.)
• And so on

But you hear fewer complaints about shutter noise in general because most non-Leica mirrorless cameras come set to EFCS mode, which is very fast to complete the exposure cycle. And shutters in most non-M cameras are highly dampened these days – perhaps more so than is physically possible inside an M body.

They certainly don’t talk about shutter lag which is huge if AF is triggered with the shutter.

[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Glad to hear we are now talking “only” acoustic cosmetics 😉.

Yes, it's a bit like hearing someone falling down the stairs: when it goes quiet, and you think it's over, then they fall down one more stair 😂

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[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

They certainly don’t talk about shutter lag which is huge if AF is triggered with the shutter.

A1/R5/R3/Z9 – they can AF on a moving person's iris at f/1.2, take the shot and end the shutter sequence before the M11 gets out of bed. But then again, these are not good comparisons to make