Shutter lag comments from Jesko von Oeynhausen

[paulsydaus]

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I have not yet purchased the M11 and this shutter sound/lag thing is the main reason for that.

For me, potential solutions would be:

1. Introduce a discrete mode for single shot mode, where the shutter does not re-open until you remove your finger from the release.

2. When in fully manual mode, introduce a mode without metering, such that the shutter doesn't need to be open in the first place.

3. Introduce an EFCS mode.

I am mainly interested in (1) and (2).  Both of these could be done in firmware as options without affecting the current operation of the camera.

(2) and (3) would have the added benefit of reducing wear on the shutter.

Leica, if you can please do this I will hand you my $9k right now...  Waiting for you to take my money.

Paul

Edited August 21, 2022 by paulsydaus

[thrid]

I brought this up in a separate thread that I started, but I wanted to add it to this discussion.

I advocate for another shutter mode that cycles like a traditional M (in addition to the suggested improvements to the standard cycle)

Closed-Open (exposure)-Closed

Of course we would lose all metering and auto exposure.

But I would be wiling to give up metering / auto exposure in exchange for shutter cycle mode that offered a lighting fast reaction time.

As it is I meter my M10 by hand. When wandering the streets I generally only need an exposure reading for the sunny and shaded side of the street. I adjust accordingly, which becomes second nature after a while.

It's a little tricky to judge, because I believe the sound of the M11 is confusing me. I plan on renting an M11 for a few days before I decide to buy one, just to see for myself if it will work for me.

Edited March 11, 2023 by thrid

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[SrMi]

Just now, thrid said:

I brought this up in a separate thread that I started, but I wanted to add it to this discussion.

I advocate for another shutter mode that cycles like a traditional M

Closed-Open (exposure)-Closed

Of course we would lose all metering and auto exposure.

But I would be wiling to give up metering / auto exposure in exchange for shutter cycle mode that offered a lighting fast reaction time.

As it is I meter my M10 by hand. When wandering the streets I generally only need an exposure reading for the sunny and shaded side of the street. I adjust accordingly, which becomes second nature after a while

You could accomplish the same short shutter lag with EFCS while maintaining metering.

Edited March 11, 2023 by SrMi

[Herr Barnack]

On 7/3/2022 at 3:14 AM, fil-m said:

I have used the M11 on a full 7-8h walking trip down the city center to both enjoy and take candids. Always on, no "delay" issue. I would only turn it off during lunch break etc. It would not even exhaust the battery and I remember still having 45-50% left back home. Battery life is amazing.

Obviously a faster startup time is mostly welcome in future firmwares or newer models but with the above recommendation  ("Power saver mode I have Camera Standby set to Off") there should not be a practical issue. 

It sounds like that is the solution to shutter lag.

 

[Tailwagger]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:48 PM, thrid said:

As it is I meter my M10 by hand. When wandering the streets I generally only need an exposure reading for the sunny and shaded side of the street. I adjust accordingly, which becomes second nature after a while.

It's a little tricky to judge, because I believe the sound of the M11 is confusing me. I plan on renting an M11 for a few days before I decide to buy one, just to see for myself if it will work for me.

Never a bad idea to rent first, but if you shoot your M10 in LV you will experience the same shutter sequence you get with the M11.  IMO, all the fuss is about the sound, not the speed, but if you can get along with the clickity-clack of the M10 in LV, you will with the M11 as well. 

[thrid]

On 3/10/2023 at 8:51 PM, SrMi said:

You could accomplish the same short shutter lag with EFCS while maintaining metering.

What's EFCS? Electronic shutter?

thanks

[thrid]

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20 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Never a bad idea to rent first, but if you shoot your M10 in LV you will experience the same shutter sequence you get with the M11.  IMO, all the fuss is about the sound, not the speed, but if you can get along with the clickity-clack of the M10 in LV, you will with the M11 as well. 

I rarely use LV on my M10 and in the cases that I do it's for a still life and shutter lag is not an issue.

But I do agree that it may be the sound of the M11 shutter that throws people, including me.

Renting an M11 for a test run sounds like a sound idea before putting down that kind of cash.

[Tailwagger]

17 minutes ago, thrid said:

I rarely use LV on my M10 and in the cases that I do it's for a still life and shutter lag is not an issue.

It's been documented that the actual 'lag' over previous models is imperceptible.  The perceived lag is the product of the shutter sound... assuming, of course, you're shooting via the OVF. All EVFs exhibit some noticeable delay versus real time... not shutter lag, per se, but the result is effectively the same.  My original point was that if you take a few test shots comparing the response of your M10 in LV vs. RF (while using the OVF) you'll understand the issue. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Tailwagger

[jakontil]

I would only feel “stuttering and delays” when i use m11 alongside the m10r, it’s a matter of getting used to honestly.. if i only use m11 only, after few frames i feel oke with the rhythm, that said, though the delays is imperceptible, it’s just feel it is there due to the sound

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, thrid said:

What's EFCS? Electronic shutter?

thanks

EFCS is the electronic first curtain shutter, a mode standard in most mirrorless cameras (more detail with Google search). That shutter mode uses an electronic instead of a mechanical first curtain, i.e., the camera does not need to close the shutter before the exposure starts.

[Evan-Liu]

6 hours ago, thrid said:

What's EFCS? Electronic shutter?

I don't have any personal experience using EFCS, but I have watched some videos discussing its potential side effects on bokeh. Here's a YouTube link for your reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veXC56OCVzU

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, Evan-Liu said:

I don't have any personal experience using EFCS, but I have watched some videos discussing its potential side effects on bokeh. Here's a YouTube link for your reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veXC56OCVzU

The bokeh issue is observable only with very high shutter speeds and wide-open shooting.

A proper implementation of EFCS switches to mechanical shutter at higher shutter speeds. The bokeh issue appears at a shutter speed higher than 1/2000 sec, AFAIK. Most cameras that offer smart EFCS implementation should be using it as default. Other cameras, like Sony, must rely on users to switch manually to mechanical shutter mode when shooting with fast shutter speeds and wide open
EFCS would also make using the electronic shutter with long lenses unnecessary.

[DrM]

 

Interesting discussion. I bet there are some collectors here who can create something like this for the M series (with the waveform & time axis), if not for the discussion, at least for the asmr..  ) :

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by DrM

[sebben]

On 3/14/2023 at 9:00 PM, Tailwagger said:

It's been documented that the actual 'lag' over previous models is imperceptible.  The perceived lag is the product of the shutter sound... assuming, of course, you're shooting via the OVF. All EVFs exhibit some noticeable delay versus real time... not shutter lag, per se, but the result is effectively the same.  My original point was that if you take a few test shots comparing the response of your M10 in LV vs. RF (while using the OVF) you'll understand the issue. 

This is not true. The lag is not constant. According to Jesko von Oeynhausen the shutter lag depends on a variety of factors. Shutter speed for example. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, sebben said:

This is not true. The lag is not constant. According to Jesko von Oeynhausen the shutter lag depends on a variety of factors. Shutter speed for example. 

Where does Jesko von Oeynhausen say that the shutter lag depends on the shutter speed?

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, sebben said:

This is not true. The lag is not constant. According to Jesko von Oeynhausen the shutter lag depends on a variety of factors. Shutter speed for example. 

Sorry, but no.  Per the comment quoted in this thread you are incorrect.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Tailwagger

[colint544]

As someone on the outside looking in - i.e. I don't have an M11, but have been considering selling a few things and getting one - this looks potentially a little annoying. Like it might just take the edge off the ownership experience. It seems as though a price is being paid for a new metering system. My only digital M is an M9M, and it's a simpler set-up than this. I've never felt the M9M needed a more sophisticated meter.

You wonder if this might be something Leica will address with their inevitable M11-P model.

[newtoleica]

1 hour ago, colint544 said:

As someone on the outside looking in - i.e. I don't have an M11, but have been considering selling a few things and getting one - this looks potentially a little annoying. Like it might just take the edge off the ownership experience. It seems as though a price is being paid for a new metering system. My only digital M is an M9M, and it's a simpler set-up than this. I've never felt the M9M needed a more sophisticated meter.

You wonder if this might be something Leica will address with their inevitable M11-P model.

I've used the M9 and M9M and the m240, now M10P + film Ms. I'm very happy with the M10P, it feels just like the film Ms and is very responsive. I NEVER use LV, disliked it intensely on the 240 and it's a bit better on the 10, but still not useable on the street. See no problem with metering to be 'fixed' by a new system. I do use auto exposure (have an M7) but meter off a suitable spot and hold for tricky lighting. Works well for me as it maintains my 'flow' when working. A nice quiet 'click' when shooting is really essential. Clickety-click-clak in LV totally ruins my concentration on the subjects. Pleased as it stops me getting GAS over an M11.

[sebben]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:00 PM, Tailwagger said:

Sorry, but no.  Per the comment quoted in this thread you are incorrect.

I quote directly from the linked thread. 
 

The effective shutter lag depends on various circumstances like the lighting situation, shutter type and synchronization status of the light metering. Therefore, it can differ in practical use between 50 and 125 ms. - Jesko von Oeynhausen

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[lefse]

According to Josh Lehrer of Red Dot Forum (and Leica Store Miami) the shutter lag of the M11 is 2ms slower than the M10.
I'm not sure that this is perceptible - but going from, say, 12ms to 24ms, definitely is when freezing action (and looking at the pictures later).

He found this using a pressure sensitive stop watch. He also timed and compared startup times.

You can watch it here, or look at the attached photos:

 

 

 

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