Shutter lag comments from Jesko von Oeynhausen

[SrMi]

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1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

A1/R5/R3/Z9 – they can AF on a moving person's iris at f/1.2, take the shot and end the shutter sequence before the M11 gets out of bed. But then again, these are not good comparisons to make

A9 shutter lag with AF and EFCS is at best (no lens movement) 216ms. A9 shortest shutter lag is 20ms. Most mirrorless cameras are much slower than digital Ms if AF is part of the shutter operation.

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[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

A9 shutter lag with AF and EFCS is at best (no lens movement) 216ms. A9 shortest shutter lag is 20ms. Most mirrorless cameras are much slower than digital Ms if AF is part of the shutter operation.

And how is the M11 lag when you include manual focusing time? You can do stopped-down, pre-focused shooting with any camera.

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

And how is the M11 lag when you include manual focusing time? You can do stopped-down, pre-focused shooting with any camera.

Yes. However, my response was explicitly to shutter lag with AF. See post #60.

Edited July 4, 2022 by SrMi

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes. However, my response was explicitly to shutter lag with AF. See post #60.

Yes. And my response was about M11 shutter lag with MF 🤡

I get what you're saying, I just need to get out and shoot instead of posting here, lol 👍

[thrid]

It's been a while, but I have a memory that the shutter lag on the film M bodies was either 10 or 12 ms. Maybe as low as 7-9 ms. I think I read this in an actual Leica brochure at least 20 years ago, that's buried in a box somewhere. I also seem to remember someone comparing the M series to the big SLR bodies like the F5 and 1v, which clocked in around 20 ms, which was roughly twice as much. Back then I owned a Canon 1-v and even it was 20ms, I never felt it was too slow to react. On the other hand you're not flinging a 1-v around like an M...

As with all things there is a point of diminishing returns. Is there a noticeable difference between 8, 12 or 15ms? Maybe not given how fast our nervous system and brain function. But at what point do we hit a number that we will notice? Do we start to notice a difference once we hit numbers like 15, 20 or 30ms and above? Probably, yes. 

I used to own a 240 and now have an M10. 

Compared to my M2/M4/M6ttl/M7 I would say that the 240/M10 have slightly amount more shutter lag. But I have never felt that it was enough of a difference to have much of an effect in real life. 

There are several other factors at play here like the amount of travel on the shutter release of each camera, wear and tear on internal components, how the camera was adjusted by the technician etc. that can effect the perception of the shooter. As an example my M2 and M4 feel crisper then my M6ttl, but that could simply be the addition of the metering system in the later.

But once again, if there is a difference between the film M cameras and my 240 or M10 I have not felt that it was enough to cause me concern that I would miss a decisive moment, because of it. The whole startup issue on the digital bodies is a whole different story, but there are ways around that.

About two weeks ago I went to the Leica store and had a look at the M11. The first time I took a shot I gave pause. Something was different and I tried to determine if it was the new shutter cycle with the always open metering mode or if there really was a noticeable difference in shutter lag. I tried to track and shoot a few passing cars and pedestrians through the store window and my brain kept telling me that the lag was greater and I was missing, but the pictures on the rear screen were not necessarily validating that theory. 

Unfortunately I only had a few minutes with the M11, so I was not able to walk away with a concrete answer. Was there a more noticeable increase in shutter lag, or was it just the new shutter cycle that was throwing me?

I'm pretty sensitive to shutter lag. I primarily shoot street and documentary type work (www.felidigiorgio.com) and I would consider myself a very fast shooter. So, when I'm 'in the zone' I do notice a difference between cameras. One of the main reasons why I have been shooting Leica M for over 25 years is the extremely low shutter lag. It's always been instantaneous and probably exceeds what the human body is capable of processing. So if that has changed significantly with the M11 and to an excessive amount, then that would be a problem for me.

 

In any case, I'm thinking about renting an M11 for a week before I buy one to see for myself if there is a problem or not.

I would be nice if Leica or someone released some official figures to put this debate to rest.

 

 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, thrid said:

It's been a while, but I have a memory that the shutter lag on the film M bodies was either 10 or 12 ms. Maybe as low as 7-9 ms. I think I read this in an actual Leica brochure at least 20 years ago, that's buried in a box somewhere. I also seem to remember someone comparing the M series to the big SLR bodies like the F5 and 1v, which clocked in around 20 ms, which was roughly twice as much. Back then I owned a Canon 1-v and even it was 20ms, I never felt it was too slow to react. On the other hand you're not flinging a 1-v around like an M...

As with all things there is a point of diminishing returns. Is there a noticeable difference between 8, 12 or 15ms? Maybe not given how fast our nervous system and brain function. But at what point do we hit a number that we will notice? Do we start to notice a difference once we hit numbers like 15, 20 or 30ms and above? Probably, yes. 

I used to own a 240 and now have an M10. 

Compared to my M2/M4/M6ttl/M7 I would say that the 240/M10 have slightly amount more shutter lag. But I have never felt that it was enough of a difference to have much of an effect in real life. 

There are several other factors at play here like the amount of travel on the shutter release of each camera, wear and tear on internal components, how the camera was adjusted by the technician etc. that can effect the perception of the shooter. As an example my M2 and M4 feel crisper then my M6ttl, but that could simply be the addition of the metering system in the later.

But once again, if there is a difference between the film M cameras and my 240 or M10 I have not felt that it was enough to cause me concern that I would miss a decisive moment, because of it. The whole startup issue on the digital bodies is a whole different story, but there are ways around that.

About two weeks ago I went to the Leica store and had a look at the M11. The first time I took a shot I gave pause. Something was different and I tried to determine if it was the new shutter cycle with the always open metering mode or if there really was a noticeable difference in shutter lag. I tried to track and shoot a few passing cars and pedestrians through the store window and my brain kept telling me that the lag was greater and I was missing, but the pictures on the rear screen were not necessarily validating that theory. 

Unfortunately I only had a few minutes with the M11, so I was not able to walk away with a concrete answer. Was there a more noticeable increase in shutter lag, or was it just the new shutter cycle that was throwing me?

I'm pretty sensitive to shutter lag. I primarily shoot street and documentary type work (www.felidigiorgio.com) and I would consider myself a very fast shooter. So, when I'm 'in the zone' I do notice a difference between cameras. One of the main reasons why I have been shooting Leica M for over 25 years is the extremely low shutter lag. It's always been instantaneous and probably exceeds what the human body is capable of processing. So if that has changed significantly with the M11 and to an excessive amount, then that would be a problem for me.

 

In any case, I'm thinking about renting an M11 for a week before I buy one to see for myself if there is a problem or not.

I would be nice if Leica or someone released some official figures to put this debate to rest.

An official Leica comment has been quoted in OP. Also, RedDotForum measured and compared the lag between M10 and M11. The conclusion is that the shutter lag increase in M11 is not perceptible.

[MrPaulK]

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I’ve been toying around shooting my daughter jumping in the pool (vacation!) and found zero difficulty nailing the time she was in the air and in my quite tight picture zone (m11). It’s hard to imagine the lag impeding shots. I’ll admit you can anticipate that shot some and of course rangefinder is ideal as I see her before she enters the shooting area. Still it is quite snappy in practice. 
 

OTOH I continue to tend to underestimate just how shallow 90mm DOF at a few meters is lol

[hdmesa]

On 7/4/2022 at 7:25 AM, lct said:

Leica should find a way to shorten the M11's shutter sound in single shot mode. The M240's value in classic mode (210ms) is OK for me but the M11's (320ms) feels too long.

I'm having trouble communicating the issue to Leica. They're thinking I'm talking about the delay between exposures, so they're saying of course single shot is slower because it meters between shots. I'm trying to say that the delay is during the shutter sequence and not between shots.

I would like to show Leica the two charts of yours that I merged into one visual; however, I think the difference in the graph heights and my scaling of them will confuse the issue. If you're willing, it would be extremely helpful to have a single visual of a single recording.

Single recording without stopping (same shutter speed for both modes):

1. Start recording
2. Take exposure in single shot
3. Without stopping the recording, change to continuous-high
4. Take second shot
5. End recording
6. Edit the audio clip to trim out the dead time in between when you were changing modes

This will give us one audio timeline where we can show exact differences in volume and duration. It will also rule out variables like distance of mic to the shutter affecting the volume, etc.

Edited July 7, 2022 by hdmesa

[lct]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

I'm having trouble communicating the issue to Leica. They're thinking I'm talking about the delay between exposures, so they're saying of course single shot is slower because it meters between shots. I'm trying to say that the delay is during the shutter sequence and not between shots.

I would like to show Leica the two charts of yours that I merged into one visual; however, I think the difference in the graph heights and my scaling of them will confuse the issue. If you're willing, it would be extremely helpful to have a single visual of a single recording.

Single recording without stopping (same shutter speed for both modes):

1. Start recording
2. Take exposure in single shot
3. Without stopping the recording, change to continuous-high
4. Take second shot
5. End recording
6. Edit the audio clip to trim out the dead time in between when you were changing modes

This will give us one audio timeline where we can show exact differences in volume and duration. It will also rule out variables like distance of mic to the shutter affecting the volume, etc.

No problem.

 

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[hdmesa]

20 minutes ago, lct said:

No problem.

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Really interesting as this shows that even in continuous high, the last shot in the series reverts to the longer time delay to reopen the shutter at the end of the exposure.

I can see, though, that shutter volume is the same between single shot and continuous-high. So if this behavior is intentional, it must be to reduce wear on the shutter.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, lct said:

No problem.

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Here is what I'm sending to Leica based on your recording:

Edited July 7, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

@lct – Update: The Leica representative is forwarding the shutter closure delay issue on to the development team to investigate. Thanks for your help with the recordings 👍

[sebben]

Pleased to hear that this is finally being acknowledged as an issue and as it currently stands is a step backwards compared to the previous generation.

[davidmknoble]

Interesting.  Wonder if we can shoot on continuous, but with a quick release only get one shot?  Trick the system so to say.  Great work on the investigative side!

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, davidmknoble said:

Interesting.  Wonder if we can shoot on continuous, but with a quick release only get one shot?  Trick the system so to say.  Great work on the investigative side!

I can't seem to fire off a single shot in any continuous mode – always at least two. But if I could, I think it would act like the last shot in a series and still have the delay as per the illustration.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I can't seem to fire off a single shot in any continuous mode – always at least two. But if I could, I think it would act like the last shot in a series and still have the delay as per the illustration.

Works for me but with the same delay as in single shot mode as you say.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Works for me but with the same delay as in single shot mode as you say.

Might be my soft release that makes it harder to get off a single shot in continuous mode.

Edit: Or I'm just old and slow, lol.

Edited July 10, 2022 by hdmesa

[ianforber]

On 7/10/2022 at 3:41 PM, hdmesa said:

Might be my soft release that makes it harder to get off a single shot in continuous mode.

Edit: Or I'm just old and slow, lol.

You’re not the only one who has this issue. I can never shoot fewer than 2 shots when on Continuous Low, unlike with my Q2 where it isn’t an issue. I don’t think of myself as particularly old and slow but hey, maybe I need to recalibrate my self-perception!

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[lct]

Take off your boxing gloves guys

[John Ricard]

Has anyone measured shutter lag at high ISO? The M cameras are the only cameras that I know of whose performance slows down dramatically when you raise the ISO.