Owners of all three M10, M10R, M11, which image did you prefer?

[hdmesa]

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13 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

While this is TOTALLY not the right way of doing it, HERE is a DCP file with SL2-S colour settings replacing the default M11 ones. 

Worth the experiment but it isn't going to match the two.

I like it. Less magenta, less yellow, and allows for more natural results when increasing vibrance and saturation.

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[hmzimelka]

23 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I like it. Less magenta, less yellow, and allows for more natural results when increasing vibrance and saturation.

I kind of like it too. Definitely less magenta and nicer reds and oranges for me,  but the LR WB numbers are a bit wacky with this profile. 

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

I kind of like it too. Definitely less magenta and nicer reds and oranges for me,  but the LR WB numbers are a bit wacky with this profile. 

Looks more like the SL 601 and original Q colors now, something I also like about the SL2-S.

[Adam Bonn]

3 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

I kind of like it too. Definitely less magenta and nicer reds and oranges for me,  but the LR WB numbers are a bit wacky with this profile. 

Paste the original color matrices back into the modified profile and you’ll get the same LR WB numbers as you would have with the original dcp file

The color matrices do pretty much sweet FA if you have forward matrices (and to a lesser extent HSD tables) as the d50 chromatic adaption is basically handling the colours you’re seeing.

As a super brief overview (in a typing on the ipad and I should be going to bed sorta way)

color matrices - map from StdA and D65 XYZ values to camera raw values

forward matrices - map from color matrices to XYZ D50

hue sat delta tables - provide the profile with the ability to stretch the d50 colours to make the linear forward matrices adaptable and malleable

(Finally, profile look up table, gives adobe look to the image, dcptool has a way to merge this into the HSDs, for reasons I can’t be bothered to go into. Frankly if the LUT is annoying ‘you’ just delete it all together, or try pasting one in from a different dcp file to see what happens)

 

@hmzimelka if you like to play these games, I humbly suggest two things. 1) dcptool and DNGPE is a gateway drug 😂 2) json format (from dcamprof) is far easier to work with.

[Tailwagger]

In general, of the three, it's the M11. But AFAIC, the question as to which produces the most satisfying result is lens dependent.  The 10-R is probably my favorite camera for the 50 'lux, particularly if I'm thinking in B&W. But I found it be very disappointing when used with my Mandlers, something which the 11 has rectified. In some ways the 10 remains my favorite, but I suspect that's more about what I was imaging with it at the time than how it rendered. 

[ravinj]

I now like M11's output the most as that's the only M I have, having sold my M10-R after after getting the M11.

Edited June 18, 2022 by ravinj

[hmzimelka]

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5 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Paste the original color matrices back into the modified profile and you’ll get the same LR WB numbers as you would have with the original dcp file

The color matrices do pretty much sweet FA if you have forward matrices (and to a lesser extent HSD tables) as the d50 chromatic adaption is basically handling the colours you’re seeing.

As a super brief overview (in a typing on the ipad and I should be going to bed sorta way)

color matrices - map from StdA and D65 XYZ values to camera raw values

forward matrices - map from color matrices to XYZ D50

hue sat delta tables - provide the profile with the ability to stretch the d50 colours to make the linear forward matrices adaptable and malleable

(Finally, profile look up table, gives adobe look to the image, dcptool has a way to merge this into the HSDs, for reasons I can’t be bothered to go into. Frankly if the LUT is annoying ‘you’ just delete it all together, or try pasting one in from a different dcp file to see what happens)

 

@hmzimelka if you like to play these games, I humbly suggest two things. 1) dcptool and DNGPE is a gateway drug 😂 2) json format (from dcamprof) is far easier to work with.

Thanks again for the info...

The SL2S profile doesn't have much in it with a total of 37 rows of text... I'm surprised it even made an image. 

This is what it has for forward matrices...

<ForwardMatrix1 Rows="0" Cols="0"/>
  <ForwardMatrix2 Rows="0" Cols="0"/>
  <ReductionMatrix1 Rows="0" Cols="0"/>
  <ReductionMatrix2 Rows="0" Cols="0"/>

 

[budjames]

I've owned the M10, M10-R and now M11. I still have the M10-R. Each version has been an upgrade, but I believe that the M11 is the best of the bunch. The image detail using my APO Summicron 35mm (my "daily driver") or my APO Summicron 50mm is insane! The flexibility of M11 is fantastic. The ability to "zoom" by cropping with the M11 is a welcomed benefit.

I use CaptureOne Pro for all of my image processing needs works very well with Leica M images.

If you have an M10-R, I think that the M11 is a very worthwhile upgrade.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

[Adam Bonn]

2 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

Thanks again for the info...

The SL2S profile doesn't have much in it with a total of 37 rows of text... I'm surprised it even made an image. 

This is what it has for forward matrices...

<ForwardMatrix1 Rows="0" Cols="0"/>
  <ForwardMatrix2 Rows="0" Cols="0"/>
  <ReductionMatrix1 Rows="0" Cols="0"/>
  <ReductionMatrix2 Rows="0" Cols="0"/>

 

Oh sorry my bad, you’re modifying the Leica embedded profile,  not the Adobe one.

Leica don’t bother with FMs and HSDs 🙄😢 in their profiles, so you only have CMs to play with, and these take a far more pivotal role without having the FM and HSD data further downstream in the dcp file

 

[setuporg]

Perhaps I hit my own point of upgrade fatigue, since I got M10-R as soon as it came out after getting into Leica with the M10 since almost the moment that came out (thanks to the personal help of the then Leica CEO), but in August 2021, on a lark, I got the last new M9-P overhauled by Leica, and now I often take it with me instead of the M10-R.  I find the experience and the difference in Leica models very pleasing and each has a character of its own.  Not having the latest M the moment it comes out is a new experience for me, and I found it extremely relaxing.  It removes the need to justify the incremental upgrade tax ($4K!) that also forces you to use the latest thing and stop using the previous ones.  Once you resist that, you find that the previous thing is good enough.  And if you go back in time, you realize how great the previous previous thing is.  With the M9, I can relive the groundbreaking moment when the first FF M appeared, when I was not even paying attention, and it's still amazing.  When people hear that this model originated in 2009, they are amazed -- all their electronics from that era is long gone.  Leica gives digital M a longevity that does not exist in the digital world.  So, add M9 to this list.:)

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

Perhaps I hit my own point of upgrade fatigue, since I got M10-R as soon as it came out after getting into Leica with the M10 since almost the moment that came out (thanks to the personal help of the then Leica CEO), but in August 2021, on a lark, I got the last new M9-P overhauled by Leica, and now I often take it with me instead of the M10-R.  I find the experience and the difference in Leica models very pleasing and each has a character of its own.  Not having the latest M the moment it comes out is a new experience for me, and I found it extremely relaxing.  It removes the need to justify the incremental upgrade tax ($4K!) that also forces you to use the latest thing and stop using the previous ones.  Once you resist that, you find that the previous thing is good enough.  And if you go back in time, you realize how great the previous previous thing is.  With the M9, I can relive the groundbreaking moment when the first FF M appeared, when I was not even paying attention, and it's still amazing.  When people hear that this model originated in 2009, they are amazed -- all their electronics from that era is long gone.  Leica gives digital M a longevity that does not exist in the digital world.  So, add M9 to this list.:)

IMO it is unique that all digital Ms still have their place in present photography. None of them are obsolete, IMO. The reason may be that each model was different, not just an incremental improvement.

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

IMO it is unique that all digital Ms still have their place in present photography. None of them are obsolete, IMO. The reason may be that each model was different, not just an incremental improvement.

Exactly.  Once you reach reasonably great low-light performance and highlights, as both M10-R and M11 do, you basically can do whatever you want.  Then in daylight you can use M9, and things like -D become interesting for the process, not only IQ.  A Monochrom allows for artistic expression and even lower light use with M10M.  I can get a weird B&W video on the M246 that no other camera can take.  It's fun to fuss over CCD vs CMOS differences if you have both.  It's also fun to see the differences in colors OOC.  Then of course it's even more fun to use an S and see how its advantage dwarfs all the other differences, but its weight does, too.:)

[jakontil]

9 hours ago, SrMi said:

IMO it is unique that all digital Ms still have their place in present photography. None of them are obsolete, IMO. The reason may be that each model was different, not just an incremental improvement.

Exactly it… it’s more less of a choice between life n death… just need to have some when applicable 

i enjoy its existence 

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, jakontil said:

Exactly it… it’s more less of a choice between life n death… just need to have some when applicable 

i enjoy its existence 

Life please!:)

[tom0511]

Am 26.6.2022 um 19:48 schrieb SrMi:

IMO it is unique that all digital Ms still have their place in present photography. None of them are obsolete, IMO. The reason may be that each model was different, not just an incremental improvement.

I agree that they all have their place. Personally I am fine with owning and using just one, everything else makes it complicated to me. Once had a Monochrom and a color M. Always struggled which one to bring.

[S Maclean]

On 6/13/2022 at 7:02 PM, bags27 said:

Sorry. I'd absolutely want the CV's image quality to equal the Leica's, since I still sometimes shoot Leica film bodies. But the CV version just doesn't do it for me. I'm not going to waste folks' time, since I've spelled it out often, and no one buys what I say anyway. But for me, the CV renders beautifully but not magically.  I'd rather keep my M 50 Lux ASPH.

I am coming late, very late to this thread but as I read I can’t help thinking.  If you already have the 50 Apo, then you’re already walking around with close to $10g on your shoulder.  For the sake of safety that is not a lesser risk than carrying 20g.  

[scroy]

I had all three and own the M11. I do like the flexibility the sensor offers vs the M10, but it was a close decision vs M10-R. I love the lower base ISO and the DR+colors which is what swung me over. 
I’m very happy with my decision.