L-system - Why poor sales?

[frame-it]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

[Simone_DF]

59 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

that I wold go out and buy a hasseblad or a Sony and send it in to get infrared or monochrome function on it.  for does 5 people there is a great Monochrom Leica camera already

Considering that there are 3 different companies doing this service, I'd say there's a market for it. Niche for sure, but it does exist.

Leica offers only a manual rangefinder camera or a 28mm autofocus option. If you get a Sony or Canon debayered you can use any native lens.

[Ko.Fe.]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:59 PM, Ivar B said:

The camera bodies seem to be the main problem (?). ... Any thoughts?

 

It is 100 % obvious to me (at least).

First cut off factor is price. And battery price is  indication of tiny production numbers which increase the manufacturing cost.  

Second cut off factor is not up to date service and even total absence of it (G7 country as Canada for example). 

No SL service in NA, either. And no Pro service I'm aware elsewhere of or even service web site where you could fill in the form and get shipping label, ship, see the status, receive estimates, approve, decline. It is not exist under LCAG. So you are paying premium price for rudimental and not in your country service.

Who wants to be hosed like what? I have seen some who are positioning them as pro.  They are using else made gear for pro work and keeping SL gear "for personal use". Why?

SL, CL zero difference, no-one else is making cameras so tasty and pleasure to use. But if you are OK with content been more important than result and feel this is it. You could get content with less expensive FF mirrorless and results are more than acceptable for 99% of photogs.  You get more capable service and more lenses for less with Sony A7 series for example.

Sony A7 series have AF adapter for any lens mounted via M bayonet. LCAG hasn't got any I'm aware of. 

[Kim Dahl]

That's the way it is.  Leica is not for professionals but amateurs who have time to wait with their repair.  But some professionals use Leica as their personal camera.  Just like I do.  That may be the mistake - we're trying to compare Leica with Canon and Sony A and Nikon in their professional series.  Leica is far from that.  If I had to buy Leica with the brain, I did not buy it.  I buy Leica with my heart and my Canon R3 I bought with my brain.  Because it's Canon R3 I make the money with 📷👍🏻 Leica is only an extra expense 🫣

Of course there are a few who use Leica (and only Leica) professionally but I think there are very few.

[beewee]

13 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Considering that there are 3 different companies doing this service, I'd say there's a market for it. Niche for sure, but it does exist.

Leica offers only a manual rangefinder camera or a 28mm autofocus option. If you get a Sony or Canon debayered you can use any native lens.

Are you sure they are converting to monochrome? That’s different and much harder than converting to full spectrum.

Converting to full spectrum means removing the cover glass and IR filter.

Debayering means you need to remove the cover glass, IR filter, micro lenses, then the dye/pigment on top of the photo sites which I assume can only be done with a chemical bath. That sounds a bit too much to me.

[Slender]

Remember (I was a todler) the gold Leicas ? -some even with a diamond on top -not kidding look it up-

 

That was the real cringe..... then Hermes (beautiful) and now Hoodinkee or Zegna or 007.... its more democratic and "un peu plus beauf".

Then again its thanks to "crazy rich asians" (not sure the middle east ones care so much now that they don't make them gold anymore) with "interesting" taste and huge appetite that we had great cameras like the M9 when Leica was about to die.... the Q and how the SL series went from "most expensive Leica FF" to SL2s being the more affordable and arguably the most user firendly to new comer to the brand.

Have you seen those youtubers girls from south-east asia parading with their husbands Leica 90 Summiluxes and limited edition noctiluxes? The latter lenses LITTERALLY pile up by the truck load in second hand shops.... iddlist buy-them-try-them-once.

I use to cringe at this but then I sort of figured out its thanks to them I can have complete Leica digital system for actual pro-photography: my SL2

So please let it be and maybe one day they will sell enough cringy things that the APO summicrons 21-24 would eventually be greenlighted by the bean counters as a love project for Dr. Peter Karbe..... I believe he is much more interested in creating those "perfect" S/SL lenses than silly - un/usable fat M 75/90 NoctiSummitthings

Also @Ivar B is your impression based on the local market (Norway?)

[JimKnopf]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Peter Karbe no longer creates lenses at all.
He has changed positions within the company.
He himself said that in the past he only designed a little bit of SL lenses because the specs were defined completely differently in advance than with M.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, Slender said:

Remember (I was a todler) the gold Leicas ? -some even with a diamond on top -not kidding look it up-

 

That was the real cringe..... then Hermes (beautiful) and now Hoodinkee or Zegna or 007.... its more democratic and "un peu plus beauf".

Then again its thanks to "crazy rich asians" (not sure the middle east ones care so much now that they don't make them gold anymore) with "interesting" taste and huge appetite that we had great cameras like the M9 when Leica was about to die.... the Q and how the SL series went from "most expensive Leica FF" to SL2s being the more affordable and arguably the most user firendly to new comer to the brand.

Have you seen those youtubers girls from south-east asia parading with their husbands Leica 90 Summiluxes and limited edition noctiluxes? The latter lenses LITTERALLY pile up by the truck load in second hand shops.... iddlist buy-them-try-them-once.

I use to cringe at this but then I sort of figured out its thanks to them I can have complete Leica digital system for actual pro-photography: my SL2

So please let it be and maybe one day they will sell enough cringy things that the APO summicrons 21-24 would eventually be greenlighted by the bean counters as a love project for Dr. Peter Karbe..... I believe he is much more interested in creating those "perfect" S/SL lenses than silly - un/usable fat M 75/90 NoctiSummitthings

Also @Ivar B is your impression based on the local market (Norway?)

You must be a lot older than I am...  The Leica Luxus (the original Gold Leica) was produced from 1929-1931, (and very few if any were sold to the Middle East as far as I am aware). That makes you about 100 years old.

[Simone_DF]

7 hours ago, beewee said:

Are you sure they are converting to monochrome? That’s different and much harder than converting to full spectrum.

Converting to full spectrum means removing the cover glass and IR filter.

Debayering means you need to remove the cover glass, IR filter, micro lenses, then the dye/pigment on top of the photo sites which I assume can only be done with a chemical bath. That sounds a bit too much to me.

These guys offer the following:

Black and White: Monochrome or more correctly Panochrome sensors with Bayer filter removed.  Currently, very limited availability.  Please see some of our B&W pictures.

https://maxmax.com/maincamerapage/cameraconversions

[LBJ2]

6 hours ago, JimKnopf said:

Peter Karbe no longer creates lenses at all.
He has changed positions within the company.
He himself said that in the past he only designed a little bit of SL lenses because the specs were defined completely differently in advance than with M.

How do you know Peter Karbe is no longer Chief Optical Designer at Leica? Has there been some announcement ? 

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by LBJ2

[opera207]

POOR AF.

[Jeff S]

9 hours ago, JimKnopf said:

Peter Karbe no longer creates lenses at all.
He has changed positions within the company.
He himself said that in the past he only designed a little bit of SL lenses because the specs were defined completely differently in advance than with M.

Stefan Daniel’s role had recently changed, but I’m not aware of any significant change in Karbe’s lens design leadership (he has for years led the design with team members, not by doing everything himself).

He sure seems to have played a lead role in SL lens design….

Jeff

[Slender]

12 hours ago, jaapv said:

You must be a lot older than I am...  The Leica Luxus (the original Gold Leica) was produced from 1929-1931, (and very few if any were sold to the Middle East as far as I am aware). That makes you about 100 years old.

hehehe e :)))

I more specifically refered to those from the 90ies. M6 was by far the most massacred Leica for those occasions lol (yes its an actual diamond)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Slender

[helged]

45 minutes ago, Slender said:

hehehe e :)))

I more specifically refered to those from the 90ies. M6 was by far the most massacred Leica for those occasions lol (yes its an actual diamond)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Another shiny one... https://leicarumors.com/2022/06/10/another-new-limited-edition-gold-plated-leica-m10-p-royal-thai-with-matching-apo-summicron-50-2-asph-and-summilux-35-1-4-asph-lenses.aspx/

[jaapv]

57 minutes ago, Slender said:

hehehe e :)))

I more specifically refered to those from the 90ies. M6 was by far the most massacred Leica for those occasions lol (yes its an actual diamond)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Yes, but that is not a special edition. It was an order by the Sultan of Brunei who gave these little trinkets as a guest gift at his parties. There is a Leica R variant as well, but Leica never sold these to their regular customers. This, I fear it does not illustrate your argument. 

[ravinj]

On 6/9/2022 at 9:47 AM, Ko.Fe. said:

It is 100 % obvious to me (at least).

First cut off factor is price. And battery price is  indication of tiny production numbers which increase the manufacturing cost.  

Second cut off factor is not up to date service and even total absence of it (G7 country as Canada for example). 

No SL service in NA, either. And no Pro service I'm aware elsewhere of or even service web site where you could fill in the form and get shipping label, ship, see the status, receive estimates, approve, decline. It is not exist under LCAG. So you are paying premium price for rudimental and not in your country service.

Who wants to be hosed like what? I have seen some who are positioning them as pro.  They are using else made gear for pro work and keeping SL gear "for personal use". Why?

SL, CL zero difference, no-one else is making cameras so tasty and pleasure to use. But if you are OK with content been more important than result and feel this is it. You could get content with less expensive FF mirrorless and results are more than acceptable for 99% of photogs.  You get more capable service and more lenses for less with Sony A7 series for example.

Sony A7 series have AF adapter for any lens mounted via M bayonet. LCAG hasn't got any I'm aware of. 

I find it hard to believe that outrageous SL battery prices in the USA are a result of low volumes. If that was the case Hasselblad's X1D batteries that have similar mechanics and capacity should be 2x-3x the price they sell for currently. X1D batteries are also better built - my BP-SCL4 cracked when it fell from 4ft. Hassy's have taken a lot more abuse and still held up.

And if we assume that SL batteries are somehow magical, look at the price of SL front/rear L lens caps. Sigma sells its rear L lens cap for $5, I don't see why Leica's should be multiples of those.

Edited June 10, 2022 by ravinj

[beewee]

12 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

These guys offer the following:

Black and White: Monochrome or more correctly Panochrome sensors with Bayer filter removed.  Currently, very limited availability.  Please see some of our B&W pictures.

https://maxmax.com/maincamerapage/cameraconversions

Interesting. Thinking about it some more, I don’t think there’s nearly as much benefit in an aftermarket monochrome conversion as compared to a factory design. You’ll probably gain some sensitivity but I don’t expect much improvement in sharpness unless the image processing software knows that the sensor does not need to be debayered. 

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, beewee said:

Interesting. Thinking about it some more, I don’t think there’s nearly as much benefit in an aftermarket monochrome conversion as compared to a factory design. You’ll probably gain some sensitivity but I don’t expect much improvement in sharpness unless the image processing software knows that the sensor does not need to be debayered. 

There's some comparison images on the website, benefits are there but are not as high as a native monochrome design. However, there are also different benefits that balance things out:

- you can convert and use a camera you already own, maybe your older camera body. Say you're upgrading from an A7III to a A1? You can get your A7III converted rather than sell it for pennies

- the M is fully manual and 8000€, the Q2 is cheaper but limited to 28mm. With a converted MILC you get the benefits of autofocus, IBIS, EVF and access to all the lenses you want 

[frame-it]

9 hours ago, beewee said:

but I don’t expect much improvement in sharpness unless the image processing software knows that the sensor does not need to be debayered. 

you haven't tried a converted camera right ?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[JimKnopf]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Jeff S:

 

He sure seems to have played a lead role in SL lens design….

he himself said no in an interview.

I think new sensors, new camera technologies (e.g. other autofocus systems) will also need new approaches in optics in the future.

his new role: https://www.leica-enthusiast-podcast.de/episode/peter-karbe-zu-gast-bei-michel-birnbacher (the last 5 minutes)