What after M11 (Stefan Daniel's interview)

[lct]

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2 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Right, so that’s the only choice? [...]

You mean EVF w/o live view? I have no idea how it could work but i'm no techie.

[IkarusJohn]

8 minutes ago, lct said:

You mean EVF w/o live view? I have no idea how it could work but i'm no techie.

No.

[Kwesi]

18 hours ago, SrMi said:

I was not clear. I wondered whether M11-P would appear in 2023, i.e., before M11-M and Q3 (2023). I could see an M11-P being launched at some point, though there was never an M10R-P. 
I wonder if Leica or its customers see a need for a lower-resolution M11, as triple-resolution covers the need for smaller raw files. The only real benefit would be a faster electronic shutter.

Traditionally, the P version has been a mid cycle refresh- about 18 months after initial launch- which is why I thought of June 2023. 

[raizans]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:46 AM, lct said:

Leica would implement IBIS and a high end EVF i guess and i doubt they would take the risk of killing the golden goose with a less expensive EVF-M if ever they would be brave enough to launch it. I'm no armchair CEO or a real one either though.

I imagine so, but the SL2 is "only" $7000, so I don't see it happening.

[lct]

7 hours ago, raizans said:

I imagine so, but the SL2 is "only" $7000 [...]

Reminds me an old French car advert where a sheikh tells his son he will have to give up his Renault: "Pas assez cher mon fils", "Not expensive enough, my son" .
https://cdn-r.luerzersarchive.com/archive/videos/480/1993/22698.mp4

[raizans]

Nobody will buy the EVF-M unless the price is higher than the Hasselblad X2D. 😂

[adan]

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On 10/22/2022 at 7:35 PM, IkarusJohn said:

Andy (Adan) says he didn’t like the internal reflections from the meter reading off the shutter, so live view is good for him.

Minor correction:

Not reflections from the off-the-shutter metering, but off the walls and floor of the M10's more cramped shutter chamber, which I suspect is due to cramming electronics into the reduced overall volume of the M10 (the overall smaller volume itself is, of course, a good thing).

I hoped (long before the M11 came along) Leica could eventually reduce the volume used by all the electronics, in order to loosen up some space in that chamber. But I did not expect them to completely remove the classic off-the-shutter metering. Just push some of the other electronics out of the way and lower the meter cell/floor a bit.

Anyone who's read my posts here in the past knows that I have zero interest (to put it mildly ) in live view or EVFs.

...............

As it happens, I'm also passing on the M11 for the moment. Nothing there I need either (I was hoping for SL2-S high-ISO capabilities - or better). Never even got around to testing it for flare/reflections.

Treated myself to a faster 135 (f/3.4) and 35mm pre-ASPH f/1.4 instead, as well as a used M10-P (short, quiet shutter sound  ). If Leica never comes out with a "higher-ISO M," I'll just keep on using my M10s, upgrading the second to a -P as well when another bargain comes my way.

[SrMi]

48 minutes ago, adan said:

As it happens, I'm also passing on the M11 for the moment. Nothing there I need either (I was hoping for SL2-S high-ISO capabilities - or better). Never even got around to testing it for flare/reflections.

I think that M11 is pretty close to SL2-S high ISO capabilities:

 

[Jeff S]

13 hours ago, adan said:

Treated myself to a faster 135 (f/3.4) and 35mm pre-ASPH f/1.4 instead, as well as a used M10-P (short, quiet shutter sound  ). If Leica never comes out with a "higher-ISO M," I'll just keep on using my M10s, upgrading the second to a -P as well when another bargain comes my way.

You might consider an M10 Monochrom, if new/used prices subside after a potential M11 Monochrom. Nothing in the Leica portfolio beats its high ISO capability, and one gets all the benefits of the M10-P, including shutter action/sound, but an even better sensor. 
 

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

22 hours ago, adan said:

Minor correction:

Not reflections from the off-the-shutter metering, but off the walls and floor of the M10's more cramped shutter chamber, which I suspect is due to cramming electronics into the reduced overall volume of the M10 (the overall smaller volume itself is, of course, a good thing).

I hoped (long before the M11 came along) Leica could eventually reduce the volume used by all the electronics, in order to loosen up some space in that chamber. But I did not expect them to completely remove the classic off-the-shutter metering. Just push some of the other electronics out of the way and lower the meter cell/floor a bit.

Anyone who's read my posts here in the past knows that I have zero interest (to put it mildly ) in live view or EVFs.

...............

As it happens, I'm also passing on the M11 for the moment. Nothing there I need either (I was hoping for SL2-S high-ISO capabilities - or better). Never even got around to testing it for flare/reflections.

Treated myself to a faster 135 (f/3.4) and 35mm pre-ASPH f/1.4 instead, as well as a used M10-P (short, quiet shutter sound  ). If Leica never comes out with a "higher-ISO M," I'll just keep on using my M10s, upgrading the second to a -P as well when another bargain comes my way.

Hmm, I still blame you, Andy! 😂

[IkarusJohn]

9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

You might consider an M10 Monochrom, if new/used prices subside after a potential M11 Monochrom. Nothing in the Leica portfolio beats its high ISO capability, and one gets all the benefits of the M10-P, including shutter action/sound, but an even better sensor. 
 

Jeff

Good idea, Jeff. 

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

You might consider an M10 Monochrom, if new/used prices subside after a potential M11 Monochrom. Nothing in the Leica portfolio beats its high ISO capability, and one gets all the benefits of the M10-P, including shutter action/sound, but an even better sensor. 
 

Jeff

To clarify: the sensor in M10M is the same as in M10-R, but the CFA is removed. 

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

To clarify: the sensor in M10M is the same as in M10-R, but the CFA is removed. 

Andy was commenting in the sentence I quoted about getting another M10-P, not an M10-R.  Hence my comment that the M10 Monochrom sensor was even better. I’m well aware of the simultaneous development of the M10-M and M10-R sensors (the latter taking longer for color tweaking), both derived from S3 sensor architecture. 
 

Jeff

[Photoworks]

On 10/26/2022 at 3:53 AM, adan said:

I hoped (long before the M11 came along) Leica could eventually reduce the volume used by all the electronics, in order to loosen up some space in that chamber. But I did not expect them to completely remove the classic off-the-shutter metering. Just push some of the other electronics out of the way and lower the meter cell/floor a bit.

 Sounds like you are more a classic , vintage, person. nothing wrong with that, there are still older cameras for sale. But at one point, like the M9, the suppliers of parts dry out and It can't be fixed.

I am not afraid of innovation, If it works it works. Light metering is much improved for me and speeds up capture.

No longer I have to point the camera at the lighthouse get a reading recompose shoot. The m11 just works,.

[LocalHero1953]

38 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

Sounds like you are more a classic , vintage, person.

Wow, nice judgement. May I use this comment to judge you?

[matted]

Aren’t we all Classic, Vintage people since we are obsessed with the shooting experience of a camera from 1954?

[lct]

1 hour ago, matted said:

Aren’t we all Classic, Vintage people since we are obsessed with the shooting experience of a camera from 1954?

Hehe yes but some are more Classic or Vintage than others . The genius of Leica was to make live view an essential part of the M11. Was a risk to take, failing which Leica would stagnate in the Jurassic Park of photography, but some photogs still like T rexes and velocy raptors .

[Tailwagger]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Hehe yes but some are more Classic or Vintage than others . The genius of Leica was to make live view an essential part of the M11. Was a risk to take, failing which Leica would stagnate in the Jurassic Park of photography, but some photogs still like T rexes and velocy raptors .

So true. Perhaps, being of a similar vintage to the current M, the aging process has worked to make us both less hardline on all manner of things. For my part it took a few years of struggle with the 240 and M10 EVF implementations before I made my peace with the funkiness of the thing, but at this point I can no longer see myself as an advocate for an EVF only M mount camera. I've morphed into a centrist on this subject... no doubt a dangerous place to be... having come to embrace the set of advantages that having both an optical and electronic VF provide when used in concert. Perhaps it was the marginal design of the V1/020 that spurred my now lost desire for an M-EVF, but at this point, I'd no longer entertain losing the OVF from the shooting experience any more than I would the EVF.  I'm sure the 12 will bring further improvements, but until then AFAIC the current offering is as good as it gets, at least for what I'm interesting in getting. 

[lct]

52 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

So true. Perhaps, being of a similar vintage to the current M, the aging process has worked to make us both less hardline on all manner of things. For my part it took a few years of struggle with the 240 and M10 EVF implementations before I made my peace with the funkiness of the thing, but at this point I can no longer see myself as an advocate for an EVF only M mount camera. I've morphed into a centrist on this subject... no doubt a dangerous place to be... having come to embrace the set of advantages that having both an optical and electronic VF provide when used in concert. Perhaps it was the marginal design of the V1/020 that spurred my now lost desire for an M-EVF, but at this point, I'd no longer entertain losing the OVF from the shooting experience any more than I would the EVF.  I'm sure the 12 will bring further improvements, but until then AFAIC the current offering is as good as it gets, at least for what I'm interesting in getting. 

Using both RF and EVF in concert is an experience i did not expect prior to the M11 to be honest. I can do it even with the Macro-Elmar 90/4 and macro adapter v1 with goggles to the point that i tend to forget the macro adapter v2 for this lens. Now an EVF-M with IBIS and high end EVF would still be tempting for me. Not sure Leica would sell it for less than the M11 though and i wonder how many users would be prepared to pay that much for a mirrorless camera using only manual lenses. Count me in but i don't hold my breath and i would keep the M11 anyway. 

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[adan]

On 10/26/2022 at 2:58 PM, Jeff S said:

You might consider an M10 Monochrom, if new/used prices subside after a potential M11 Monochrom. Nothing in the Leica portfolio beats its high ISO capability, and one gets all the benefits of the M10-P, including shutter action/sound, but an even better sensor. 
 

Jeff

I think we've been around this tree a couple of times already on other threads.

The M10 Monochrom is excellent for B&W - but B&W is not my primary goal. 

I'm looking for higher ISOs to make COLOR photographs in more and more marginal lighting - with (when needed) a 135mm f/3.4. Preferably freezing the movements of rather active musicians (or dancers, or rioters and such).

The M10s come close, but are borderline. The M11 does better, but is still borderline. Not enough benefit make it worthwhile - for me.

Similar thing happened with the M(240) - it was a marginal upgrade to the M9 regarding higher ISOs. I waited to upgrade until the M10, which thankfully provided a full 2 more stops of usable sensitivity. Now I'm holding out for another 2-stop jump. That (and nothing less) will be worth the $4000-$6000 price of an upgrade.

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