How do we get Leica/Adobe to fix lens corrections?

[erudolph]

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14 hours ago, SrMi said:

Note that lens corrections with Tri-Elmar work if I change the model name from "LEICA M11" to "LEICA M10-R" (I used DNG Cleaner to change the name).

Seems clearly an Adobe bug.

I am chatting with Adobe support right now... and have gotten a case started.

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by erudolph

[Overgaard]

20 hours ago, tashley said:

The lack of lens distortion corrections is increasingly annoying: it should have been fixed in the most recent round of Creative Cloud updates but the distortion corrections are still not working. On some lenses this is a real issue and on others it’s less important. Subject matter also makes a difference. But for my sort of use, some lenses are almost unusable at the moment… see the shot from the Trip-Elmar today at, I think, 18mm. More mustache than a mariachi…

Leica says of this lens: “Due to the minimal distortion and barely perceptible field curvature, it can be recommended for highly demanding architecture photography even at the 16mm setting”

I don’t think so. We need these lens corrections and we need them now! Who should we be talking to about this? 

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Is this mechanical shutter or electronic shutter? The reason I ask is that electronic shutter can cause things to warp and change shape in odd ways (while the shutter time might be 1/1000, the electronic shutter reads for 1/10th second and thus warp shapes to any movement).

[erudolph]

When Lens Profile Corrections are enabled and disabled in Lightroom, the geometry of the image file should change, yes?  With files taken with the mechanical shutter, the geometry doesn't change, with the exception of a couple of the lens profiles.

 

I have a copy of Capture One 22 but am not really familiar with it.  When I go to the lens correction tab, I don't see any change with M11 DNGs, but I don't know how to turn the corrections on and off, so can't say whether or not they're being applied.

[SrMi]

18 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

 

Is this mechanical shutter or electronic shutter? The reason I ask is that electronic shutter can cause things to warp and change shape in odd ways (while the shutter time might be 1/1000, the electronic shutter reads for 1/10th second and thus warp shapes to any movement).

Mechanical shutter. Mustache distortion of Tri-Elmar is not corrected when the camera is M11. The distortion is corrected when the camera is M10-R. The setting "Enable Profile Correction" is turned on.

[anickpick]

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/supported-lenses.html

 

Lens corrections work with Leica M11 plus these two lenses

Leica NOCTILUX-M 50 f1.2 ASPH.	Leica M	11.0/14.0
Leica APO-SUMMICRON-M 35mm f/2 ASPH	Leica M	11.1/14.1

 

Lens corrections do not work with Leica M11 plus all other lenses, for example:

Leica NOCTILUX-M 75mm f/1.25 ASPH.	Leica	7.2/10.2
LEICA ELMARIT-M 90mm f/2.8	Leica	4.0/7.0
LEICA MACRO-ELMAR-M 90mm f/4	Leica	4.0/7.0
LEICA NOCTILUX-M 50mm f/0.95 ASPH.	Leica	4.0/7.0

 

now check the lens mount "Leica M" vs. "Leica"

[Bikie John]

Just a thought - did anybody notice this distortion using the WATE on film? The lens has been around for a long time so I would expect to have heard a lot of complaints if it did.

There are many things that seem to be shown up by high-res digital sensors that are not apparent on film - but surely this sort of large-scale "moustache" distortion would show just as much on film as on digital. Or indeed on lower resolution sensors. If it doesn't it rather suggests that there may be some other cause.

John

Edited April 29, 2022 by Bikie John

[Tailwagger]

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Admittedly I haven't pounded on the WATE, but of the roughly 150 shots I've taken with it so far, I've not encountered anything that even remotely resembles this sort of distortion problem.  Curious as to the shooting parameters employed.

[tashley]

18 hours ago, Overgaard said:

 

Is this mechanical shutter or electronic shutter? The reason I ask is that electronic shutter can cause things to warp and change shape in odd ways (while the shutter time might be 1/1000, the electronic shutter reads for 1/10th second and thus warp shapes to any movement).

Thanks - I’m aware of that. This is the optical distortions I’m talking about - very noticeable with the WATE but also quite clearly seen in many 35 lux shots, depending on the subject matter. 

 

2 hours ago, Bikie John said:

Just a thought - did anybody notice this distortion using the WATE on film? The lens has been around for a long time so I would expect to have heard a lot of complaints if it did.

There are many things that seem to be shown up by high-res digital sensors that are not apparent on film - but surely this sort of large-scale "moustache" distortion would show just as much on film as on digital. Or indeed on lower resolution sensors. If it doesn't it rather suggests that there may be some other cause.

John

It’s always been there and as you can see in my post at the top of the thread it will show up at really very small sizes if the subject is of a certain type. 

[tashley]

1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

Admittedly I haven't pounded on the WATE, but of the roughly 150 shots I've taken with it so far, I've not encountered anything that even remotely resembles this sort of distortion problem.  Curious as to the shooting parameters employed.

It was a shot as straight as it looked. Nothing fancy. F5.6 or F8 almost certainly, handheld, ISO 80 and 1/80th. 

[Tailwagger]

26 minutes ago, tashley said:

It was a shot as straight as it looked. Nothing fancy. F5.6 or F8 almost certainly, handheld, ISO 80 and 1/80th. 

Really odd.  I do a lot of architecture with the WATE and haven't seen the problem. I have noted a bit of excessive field curvature, which I've corrected manually, but that's about it. That said, I'm with ya, Adobe needs to fix this yesterday.

[tashley]

On 4/28/2022 at 3:27 AM, SrMi said:

Note that lens corrections with Tri-Elmar work if I change the model name from "LEICA M11" to "LEICA M10-R" (I used DNG Cleaner to change the name).

Seems clearly an Adobe bug.

That's not working for me - interested to know any other parameters? Which version of LR and was it Classic or Mobile and on which device? I have downloaded and tried DNG cleaner and though it does correctly report the new camera model to LR Mobile current version on a Mac, the lens corrections continue to do nothing...

[tashley]

So I have tried a variety of things and here is the result in either LRC or LR Mobile, Mac, current versions, having used DNG Cleaner to rename the files to make the EXIF into Leica Camera AG and M9 Digital Camera, which is exactly what RAW Digger tells e is the EXIF information for M9 files, on which I know the lens profile corrections are affective. For comparison the uncorrected file is included. This demonstrates that the profile, when applied, is actually really good! 

The next question is, does telling LR that the file is from an M9 create any other effects that are less desirable?

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Edited May 1, 2022 by tashley

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, tashley said:

That's not working for me - interested to know any other parameters? Which version of LR and was it Classic or Mobile and on which device? I have downloaded and tried DNG cleaner and though it does correctly report the new camera model to LR Mobile current version on a Mac, the lens corrections continue to do nothing...

It works with Lightroom Classic.

[anickpick]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb tashley:

The next question is, does telling LR that the file is from an M9 create any other effects that are less desirable?

Well, when I change "M11" to "M10-R" in DNG-Cleaner, lens corrections work.

When comparing the original and the altered DNG files, they look similar upon first sight, however, upon closer inspection, I can see that colors are not exactly the same.

[tashley]

47 minutes ago, anickpick said:

Well, when I change "M11" to "M10-R" in DNG-Cleaner, lens corrections work.

When comparing the original and the altered DNG files, they look similar upon first sight, however, upon closer inspection, I can see that colors are not exactly the same.

Did you change the camera name too? And did you use upper case or lower case?

[Adam Bonn]

3 hours ago, tashley said:

The next question is, does telling LR that the file is from an M9 create any other effects that are less desirable?

Yeah, LR will load the dcp file for the M9 and apply it your M11 DNG and the content of those dcp files will be completely different

Here's the work a round:

Take the real M11 dcp file. Duplicate it so you're not breaking the original (or use the one that I've shared in the M11 forum on here)

Open the copy with dcamprof/lumariver or dcptool

change the unique camera model entry to M9 Digital Camera (exactly as I just typed that)

rename the display name of the profile from 'adobe standard' to (something like) adobe standard M9 really M11

rename the actual dcp file to (something like) adobe standard M9 really M11.dcp

Save it.

Import it into LR (or copy it where LR stores such things) 

Restart LR

Open the M11 DNGs that you've used DNG cleaner to convince LR are really from the M9.

Select the profile you just modified from the profile list

Now you'll have the correct M11 dcp file for M11 DNG files that LR thinks came from the M9, and if you own or use an M9 (or have old images from one in your catalogue) you won't mess up with them because your fake M9 and real M9 dcp files will be separate

I'm literally about to go to bed then get up and go on vacation for a week. If you haven't managed this by the time I get back let me know and I'll help some more.

That said I'm sure you'll be fine

edit:

this won't work with adobe color (landscape, portrait etc) only adobe standard. I could make it work with adobe color (in fact any xmp profile, eg the cobalt ones) but that's a bit more buggering about... if you have an xmp profile you'll still need to make the 'fake' dcp file, then duplicate the xmp profile, open it in a text editor then overwrite the part that references the dcp file with adobe standard M9 really M11 (or whatever you named the dcp file) - it'll make more sense when you see it open as text..

Edited May 1, 2022 by Adam Bonn

[anickpick]

vor 58 Minuten schrieb tashley:

Did you change the camera name too? And did you use upper case or lower case?

This is all I did:

 

 

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[tashley]

12 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Yeah, LR will load the dcp file for the M9 and apply it your M11 DNG and the content of those dcp files will be completely different

Here's the work a round:

Take the real M11 dcp file. Duplicate it so you're not breaking the original (or use the one that I've shared in the M11 forum on here)

Open the copy with dcamprof/lumariver or dcptool

change the unique camera model entry to M9 Digital Camera (exactly as I just typed that)

rename the display name of the profile from 'adobe standard' to (something like) adobe standard M9 really M11

rename the actual dcp file to (something like) adobe standard M9 really M11.dcp

Save it.

Import it into LR (or copy it where LR stores such things) 

Restart LR

Open the M11 DNGs that you've used DNG cleaner to convince LR are really from the M9.

Select the profile you just modified from the profile list

Now you'll have the correct M11 dcp file for M11 DNG files that LR thinks came from the M9, and if you own or use an M9 (or have old images from one in your catalogue) you won't mess up with them because your fake M9 and real M9 dcp files will be separate

I'm literally about to go to bed then get up and go on vacation for a week. If you haven't managed this by the time I get back let me know and I'll help some more.

That said I'm sure you'll be fine

edit:

this won't work with adobe color (landscape, portrait etc) only adobe standard. I could make it work with adobe color (in fact any xmp profile, eg the cobalt ones) but that's a bit more buggering about... if you have an xmp profile you'll still need to make the 'fake' dcp file, then duplicate the xmp profile, open it in a text editor then overwrite the part that references the dcp file with adobe standard M9 really M11 (or whatever you named the dcp file) - it'll make more sense when you see it open as text..

Crikey... thanks Adam.... I really appreciate that, though it does raise the question as to why we have to bugger about like this to get something that for most cameras is taken for granted once LR has supported them, which should not take this long. I really feel quite strongly that it is up to Leica, given that some of their lenses need corrections quite badly, to lobby Adobe to get this fixed. Because with the best will in the world I'd lose the will to live if I had to do the above at all often... or in fact I'd just buy back into a system where it isn't needed!

Edited May 2, 2022 by tashley

[tashley]

11 hours ago, anickpick said:

This is all I did:

 

 

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thank you. I'll give it another go, though it did work when I changed it to M9... there are many ghost in the machines....

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[tashley]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:56 AM, anickpick said:

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/supported-lenses.html

 

Lens corrections work with Leica M11 plus these two lenses

Leica NOCTILUX-M 50 f1.2 ASPH.	Leica M	11.0/14.0
Leica APO-SUMMICRON-M 35mm f/2 ASPH	Leica M	11.1/14.1

 

Lens corrections do not work with Leica M11 plus all other lenses, for example:

Leica NOCTILUX-M 75mm f/1.25 ASPH.	Leica	7.2/10.2
LEICA ELMARIT-M 90mm f/2.8	Leica	4.0/7.0
LEICA MACRO-ELMAR-M 90mm f/4	Leica	4.0/7.0
LEICA NOCTILUX-M 50mm f/0.95 ASPH.	Leica	4.0/7.0

 

now check the lens mount "Leica M" vs. "Leica"

I'm not quite sure what you (in fact Adobe!) mean here? DO you mean that Adobe have forgotten to designate the other M lenses as M lenses and that's why they don't work? Because the list isn't specific to the M11, which means that if that were the problem, only the 50 Lux and the 35 APO corrections would work on ANY Leica Camera whereas in my LR both classic and regular on both mobile and Mac, the corrections seem to work for all M lenses on all M cameras apart from the M11. I'm sorry to be thick....