How do we get Leica/Adobe to fix lens corrections?

[erudolph]

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I've written to support at Leica USA.  A first step.

[erudolph]

This just in…

 

Dear Ed,

Hope this email finds you well.

This e-mail is in reference to the escalated case ADB-24303818-T8D9, I would like to inform you that our engineering team is working on it, here is the bug code for reference "CR-4201773".

This issue will be fixed on the next release of Lightroom Classic. 

Thanks for working with us.

Thanks & Regards
Kimber Thiyam | Lead Technical Support Consultant | Customer  Experience | Adobe Systems |

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[scott kirkpatrick]

4 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Maybe so, but I personally don't care why it happened as much as I just want them to fix it.

I think you're being intentionally difficult for no real reason here. But I'm moving on since the original joke was obviously lost on ya... 

I care about why, since that helps to figure out who one should contact to fix things.  In this case, it's apparently Adobe.  And I was very surprised to see Tim Ashley's observations on uncorrected mustache distortion, since I thought that WarpRectilinear (used by C1) should handle it.

[anickpick]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb erudolph:

This just in…

 

Dear Ed,

Hope this email finds you well.

This e-mail is in reference to the escalated case ADB-24303818-T8D9, I would like to inform you that our engineering team is working on it, here is the bug code for reference "CR-4201773".

This issue will be fixed on the next release of Lightroom Classic. 

Thanks for working with us.

Thanks & Regards
Kimber Thiyam | Lead Technical Support Consultant | Customer  Experience | Adobe Systems |

A huge thank you 👍👋🖖

Edited May 4, 2022 by anickpick

[scott kirkpatrick]

I'll have to correct some assumptions and statements in my posts about how C1 handles the distortion in the M 35 APO Summicron.  I've worked over quite a few DNG files from SL, SL2 and SL2-S to see how effectively they correct distortion in zoom lenses and older lenses (or not).  But I forgot that in M cameras, Leica does not create   WarpRectilinear opcodes in M raw files.  So C1 apparently leaves things as they find them, while Adobe makes a correction (which took more time to ship).  I've sent C1 a comment, asking if they have plans to fix this.

[hdmesa]

18 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I'll have to correct some assumptions and statements in my posts about how C1 handles the distortion in the M 35 APO Summicron.  I've worked over quite a few DNG files from SL, SL2 and SL2-S to see how effectively they correct distortion in zoom lenses and older lenses (or not).  But I forgot that in M cameras, Leica does not create   WarpRectilinear opcodes in M raw files.  So C1 apparently leaves things as they find them, while Adobe makes a correction (which took more time to ship).  I've sent C1 a comment, asking if they have plans to fix this.

C1 corrects distortion on my 28 Lux just fine when I select the profile for it in the Lens Correction panel. C1 does not have a profile for the APO 35 Summicron M, so there is nothing to "fix" – they need to create one. And good luck with that. They are slow to create profiles even for new more popular lenses, like Canon RF.

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[scott kirkpatrick]

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OK, so I sent a request to Capture One customer support to ask how they were coming along on a profile for the M 35/2.0 APO, and got an interesting (standard) reply,  including the following small problem:

We are working our best to get to your issue as soon as possible. Unfortunately the ongoing war in Ukraine affects some of our Capture One team members. Our thoughts are with our staff located in Ukraine, and we are doing what we can to offer our support.
As our Ukraine team handles customer support and tech support requests, this means that there might be some delays in our response time. We truly appreciate your understanding.

[SrMi]

https://community.adobe.com/t5/camera-raw-bugs/p-lens-corrections-fault-for-leica-m-lenses-on-leica-m11-camera/idi-p/12917480

[tashley]

On 5/4/2022 at 1:26 AM, erudolph said:

This just in…

 

Dear Ed,

Hope this email finds you well.

This e-mail is in reference to the escalated case ADB-24303818-T8D9, I would like to inform you that our engineering team is working on it, here is the bug code for reference "CR-4201773".

This issue will be fixed on the next release of Lightroom Classic. 

Thanks for working with us.

Thanks & Regards
Kimber Thiyam | Lead Technical Support Consultant | Customer  Experience | Adobe Systems |

Amazing! Well done and thank you. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Capture One sometimes provides "manufacturer default' profile corrections in a lens profile, which they describe as the distortion, lateral chromatic aberration (LCA), and vignetting corrections that have been embedded in the publicly readable parts of the DNG file (not Maker Notes).  As far as I know Leica does vignetting corrections silently, but does pass along distortion and  LCA information using a standard opcode format, but only does this in their L-mount DNGs.  So I put the M 35 APO SC into an M to L Leica adapter, and tried it on my SL2.  The straight lines on the house next door's boards looked just the same, with slight curves at the corners from the mustache effect.  I checked in the SL2's DNG output, and found that although Leica does provide WarpRectilinear parameters, but they are just stubs, (1's and 0's) indicating no correction required. 

So Leica has not provided any guidance on this, probably because they view the M35 APO as an M-only lens.  

Edited May 6, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

[hdmesa]

11 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Capture One sometimes provides "manufacturer default' profile corrections in a lens profile, which they describe as the distortion, lateral chromatic aberration (LCA), and vignetting corrections that have been embedded in the publicly readable parts of the DNG file (not Maker Notes).  As far as I know Leica does vignetting corrections silently, but does pass along distortion and  LCA information using a standard opcode format, but only does this in their L-mount DNGs.  So I put the M 35 APO SC into an M to L Leica adapter, and tried it on my SL2.  The straight lines on the house next door's boards looked just the same, with slight curves at the corners from the mustache effect.  I checked in the SL2's DNG output, and found that although Leica does provide WarpRectilinear parameters, but they are just stubs, (1's and 0's) indicating no correction required. 

So Leica has not provided any guidance on this, probably because they view the M35 APO as an M-only lens.  

On my SL2-S, if I select an M lens from the list (or let it auto-identify), the distortion correction, vignette correction, and color shading correction are applied directly, permanently, and unalterably to the DNG – they are not included in the manufacturer profile because they don't need to be. Not sure why Leica does this on the SL cameras since embedding the corrections in the DNG and letting them be applied by the RAW developer would make more sense, in my opinion.

Edit to say: I keep hoping in every firmware update that Leica will change how this works – why? – because to get IBIS working with an M lens on my SL2-S, I have to choose an M lens from the list and can't just enter the focal length – and when I use a CV lens, that means it gets the correction for a different lens applied to it without a choice – to use my CV lenses uncorrected on the SL2-S, I have to leave it as unknown lens and be ok with IBIS being deactivated.

Edited May 7, 2022 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

On my SL2-S, if I select an M lens from the list (or let it auto-identify), the distortion correction, vignette correction, and color shading correction are applied directly, permanently, and unalterably to the DNG – they are not included in the manufacturer profile because they don't need to be. Not sure why Leica does this on the SL cameras since embedding the corrections in the DNG and letting them be applied by the RAW developer would make more sense, in my opinion.

Edit to say: I keep hoping in every firmware update that Leica will change how this works – why? – because to get IBIS working with an M lens on my SL2-S, I have to choose an M lens from the list and can't just enter the focal length – and when I use a CV lens, that means it gets the correction for a different lens applied to it without a choice – to use my CV lenses uncorrected on the SL2-S, I have to leave it as unknown lens and be ok with IBIS being deactivated.

AFAIK, the distortion, vignette, and other corrections are never applied permanently to DNG files. Instead, a built-in profile (part of the DNG file) includes those corrections. Unfortunately, Adobe does not allow turning off the built-in profile, but you can use DNG Cleaner to remove the corrections. AFAIK, C1 allows turning off the built-in profile.

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, SrMi said:

AFAIK, the distortion, vignette, and other corrections are never applied permanently to DNG files. Instead, a built-in profile (part of the DNG file) includes those corrections. Unfortunately, Adobe does not allow turning off the built-in profile, but you can use DNG Cleaner to remove the corrections. AFAIK, C1 allows turning off the built-in profile.

I didn’t believe it either when someone on FM Forums told me, and I tried it. Capture One let’s the user turn off any profile corrections whether they are mandatory or not, but there are none to turn off for the DNGs coming from my SL2-S when using an M lens profile — and the shading is corrected versus without a profile. Maybe distortion wasn’t corrected though — need to test it using a grid chart with and without a profile. Hard to tell with the 50 profiles, maybe I will use a profile for an M lens with a lot of distortion and see what it does to the DNGs using the CV 50 APO.

[scott kirkpatrick]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I didn’t believe it either when someone on FM Forums told me, and I tried it. Capture One let’s the user turn off any profile corrections whether they are mandatory or not, but there are none to turn off for the DNGs coming from my SL2-S when using an M lens profile — and the shading is corrected versus without a profile. Maybe distortion wasn’t corrected though — need to test it using a grid chart with and without a profile. Hard to tell with the 50 profiles, maybe I will use a profile for an M lens with a lot of distortion and see what it does to the DNGs using the CV 50 APO.

I don't really know, and we can't find out without inside information.  I have always assumed that vignetting and edge color issues are done in the Leica firmware for each camera, since they are sensor-specific.  Distortion is lens-specific, and thus a natural subject for post-processing in any digital camera.  The issue is whether the WarpRectilinear opcodes, which describe the distortion for each color as a polynomial in R with four parameters (i.e. up to cubic terms) are being used to carry that information or something proprietary hidden from view in the MakerNotes of each  file, which would then have to be shared with Adobe and others.  I've looked at the WarpRectilinear data for SL zooms and for many R lenses, and there is a lot done there.   Some of it changes with focal length and even focus distance.  But perhaps with the WATE and the 35 M APO, which are film lenses, the slight distortion which is present is considered a "filmic look" and left alone.

[tashley]

30 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I don't really know, and we can't find out without inside information.  I have always assumed that vignetting and edge color issues are done in the Leica firmware for each camera, since they are sensor-specific.  Distortion is lens-specific, and thus a natural subject for post-processing in any digital camera.  The issue is whether the WarpRectilinear opcodes, which describe the distortion for each color as a polynomial in R with four parameters (i.e. up to cubic terms) are being used to carry that information or something proprietary hidden from view in the MakerNotes of each  file, which would then have to be shared with Adobe and others.  I've looked at the WarpRectilinear data for SL zooms and for many R lenses, and there is a lot done there.   Some of it changes with focal length and even focus distance.  But perhaps with the WATE and the 35 M APO, which are film lenses, the slight distortion which is present is considered a "filmic look" and left alone.

The WATE distortion is strong and hideous and makes anything with a straight line in it look like a mariachi. It has always previously been correctable in LR and still is if you spoof LR to think that an M11 is a previous M. AFAIK the correction of lens distortion for M lenses in LR has always been optional and has never been ‘baked into’ the DNG.

[tashley]

BTW a little bird tells me that Leica are fully aware of this issue and are on to Adobe about it, so what with that and the support cases raised by people here, let’s hope that the upcoming resolution is not only in LRC but also in Mobile.

Then we can enjoy what is otherwise a truly extraordinary camera without this fly in the ointment!

Edited May 7, 2022 by tashley

[hdmesa]

14 hours ago, SrMi said:

AFAIK, the distortion, vignette, and other corrections are never applied permanently to DNG files. Instead, a built-in profile (part of the DNG file) includes those corrections. Unfortunately, Adobe does not allow turning off the built-in profile, but you can use DNG Cleaner to remove the corrections. AFAIK, C1 allows turning off the built-in profile.

I went back and tested again – vignetting corrections are getting baked into the SL2-S DNGs, but distortion correction is not. Deselecting Manufacturer Profile in C1 and changing it to Generic has no effect – vignette correction cannot be removed from the DNG.

CV 50 APO at f/2 on the SL2-S viewed in C1:

Top image: 50 APO profile selected in-camera
Bottom image: Profile turned Off (also turns off IBIS)

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I can't tell what's going on with edge color shading correction on this specific set of images, so not sure if that's baked in, but vignette correction definitely is.

Both images corrected for vignetting manually so edge color shift is more visible.

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by hdmesa

[scott kirkpatrick]

2 hours ago, tashley said:

The WATE distortion is strong and hideous and makes anything with a straight line in it look like a mariachi. It has always previously been correctable in LR and still is if you spoof LR to think that an M11 is a previous M. AFAIK the correction of lens distortion for M lenses in LR has always been optional and has never been ‘baked into’ the DNG.

Capture One has a WATE profile, which works on any camera or lens.  Here's how that profile handles my test shot with the M 35 APO:

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The moustache twirls in the corner boards are gone.  A nice thing about COne's handling of this sort of thing is that not only is it optional, it is on a slider, so that you can apply from 0 to 120% of the original correction.

[tashley]

56 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Capture One has a WATE profile, which works on any camera or lens.  Here's how that profile handles my test shot with the M 35 APO:

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The moustache twirls in the corner boards are gone.  A nice thing about COne's handling of this sort of thing is that not only is it optional, it is on a slider, so that you can apply from 0 to 120% of the original correction.

I have C1 license for my Phase DB only - and I’m totally invested for historical reasons in LR as my catalog solution - so I can’t use C1 for my M11 files. But there’s also a slider in LR for when Adobe starts giving us what we pay for in our subscriptions. 
 

Time to form an Adobe Customer User Group so they can’t play deaf and dumb for so long each time they screw up?

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[Photoworks]

On 5/7/2022 at 9:59 AM, hdmesa said:

I didn’t believe it either when someone on FM Forums told me, and I tried it. Capture One let’s the user turn off any profile corrections whether they are mandatory or not, but there are none to turn off for the DNGs coming from my SL2-S when using an M lens profile — and the shading is corrected versus without a profile. Maybe distortion wasn’t corrected though — need to test it using a grid chart with and without a profile. Hard to tell with the 50 profiles, maybe I will use a profile for an M lens with a lot of distortion and see what it does to the DNGs using the CV 50 APO.

Not sure how you get this to work!

Sl2 and SL2s only apply lens profile if it detect 6bit coding on original Leica adapter. Only in this case some corrections are been added.

If you are using any other lens or adapter no lens profile is activated in camera. and C1P reflect that.

By selecting a lens you only activating IBIS on SL2. I do this all the time with cinema lenses for photo and video.

 

I just tested this on SL2 with CV 28mm. Profile selected and no Profile selected. the image is 100% the same .
Tested FW 3.0 and 4.0 on SL2