Leica CL discontinued?

[MJB]

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2 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Then you’re a cheap option for them. The rest of the world likes to be coddled. 

It sort of like a stripper saying nice things to you during a lap dance, isn't it? It's an illusion.

Edited April 15, 2022 by MJB

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[Le Chef]

2 hours ago, MJB said:

It sort of like a stripper saying nice things to you during a lap dance, isn't it? It's an illusion.

 But if you buy, buy new, buy better, or buy more they win.

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, Le Chef said:

And that’s why they’re in trouble. That by the way was an excuse for not having done the job properly - they had no one wanting to come in.

Really?  Try a bit of fact-checking before you post, it avoids embarrassment....   

https://www.jaguarlandrover.com/news/2021/05/strong-end-fiscal-202021-significant-q4-profit-and-positive-free-cash-flow

[Le Chef]

17 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Really?  Try a bit of fact-checking before you post, it avoids embarrassment....   

https://www.jaguarlandrover.com/news/2021/05/strong-end-fiscal-202021-significant-q4-profit-and-positive-free-cash-flow

I check my facts regularly.

So that’s when your dealer closed the doors? In Q4 2021? You need to think a bit more about that! Supply of Jaguars, like all vehicles was limited by supply chain issues. If they closed the doors it was because they didn’t have supply. Free cash flow in Q4 because they couldn’t buy the components needed in the supply chain, and b) they were selling out stock and not building new. What were their 90 and 120 day stock levels?

if it was years earlier it was because no one wanted to buy Jaguar due to poor quality and reliability. Check JD Power scores for the year your dealer closed their doors if it wasn’t Q4 2021.

BTW. Did you find those financials you must have used for your Leica profitability claim, yet? Talking cars is a deflection to avoid embarrassment.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Le Chef

[jaapv]

I wonder why my little anecdote from around 2000 triggered you so strongly... Have it your way - I had a series of nice and reliable Jags over more than a decade up to 2014. I only switched brands because a Mitsubishi was so heavily subsidized that it earned me 9000 Euro against writeoff over seven years. Have a nice Easter! 

[Le Chef]

27 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I wonder why my little anecdote from around 2000 triggered you so strongly... Have it your way - I had a series of nice and reliable Jags over more than a decade up to 2014. I only switched brands because a Mitsubishi was so heavily subsidized that it earned me 9000 Euro against writeoff over seven years. Have a nice Easter! 

You’re welcome Jaap and Happy Easter to you.

I love Jaguar, grew up dreaming of owning Jaguars  and have worked on JLR in the past - hence my frustration - so consequently have never owned one. A BRG Jaguar XKS Supercharged would do very nicely however.

[tritentrue]

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2 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Talking cars is a deflection to avoid embarrassment.

The two threads on the apparent discontinuation of Leica's APS-C line are chock full of logical fallacies from the most ardent defenders of the brand (fandpas, maybe?😉)

We've seen straw man, misdirection, deflection, even a bit of scorched earth, among others.  It's to be expected when there's no logical defense against the assertions of management's shortcomings.

Fortunately for those of us who continue to use and enjoy the CL and its lenses, Leica's manufacturing people apparently did a much better job than their management folks.

[nicci78]

5 hours ago, Le Chef said:

BTW. Did you find those financials you must have used for your Leica profitability claim, yet? Talking cars is a deflection to avoid embarrassment

I have already give you the link for Leica financials on post #56

It is auf deutsch obviously, but Google translate is your friend if needed.

Leica is back to profitability (after a catastrophic corona locked down) actually it has always been for several years except 2020 (like everybody else)

 

[LocalHero1953]

Can we merge the two threads on the discontinuation of the CL? It would avoid some cross-referencing, double posting and misreadings.

On the other hand, perhaps it wouldn't.

[wda]

35 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Can we merge the two threads on the discontinuation of the CL? It would avoid some cross-referencing, double posting and misreadings.

On the other hand, perhaps it wouldn't.

A double-barreled approach might be fractionally more effective in Leicaland?

[Le Chef]

6 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I have already give you the link for Leica financials on post #56

It is auf deutsch obviously, but Google translate is your friend if needed.

Leica is back to profitability (after a catastrophic corona locked down) actually it has always been for several years except 2020 (like everybody else)

 

Sorry I had missed this - didn’t show up earlier. You ideally need 5 years of data. Sales are obviously down, and costs down, but EBIT is very low. That number should be above 10 and closer to 15 to be healthy.

[LocalHero1953]

Since something happened in 2019-2021 that may have affected Leica and its market, I think all that we can read into this is that Leica has kept its head above water in rough seas - which is to its credit.

Edited April 16, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Since something happened in 2019-2021 that may have affected Leica and its market, I think all that we can read into this is that Leica has kept its head above water in rough seas - which is to its credit.

Covid and supply chain issues, to name only two,

[nicci78]

9 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Sorry I had missed this - didn’t show up earlier. You ideally need 5 years of data. Sales are obviously down, and costs down, but EBIT is very low. That number should be above 10 and closer to 15 to be healthy.

Leica has been profitable for years. Their record were 2015-16 FY with almost 480M €. It is the Q effect. 
Only bump in their perfect earnings : 2019-20. The CoVid effect  

After that, only a slow decline in sales. Just like the rest of industry. 
 

I try to found their previous statements again and published it here. 
My file management is a mess. So no guarantee to found it soon. But you can surely found them online. They were not secret at all. 

[IkarusJohn]

On 4/16/2022 at 1:05 AM, wda said:

With respect, you do not need to be a company manager or director to see the effect of no follow-up marketing. They felt it necessary to  sustain the sale of SL2 versions. Why not support their other models?

Quite clearly, they made a commercial decision to discontinue the APS-C system.  My view is this was all about the T/TL/TL2 camera - the market never took to it.  I suspect the problem was that Leica tried to bridge the camera / phone gap.  They gave it a good go, and I still use my TL2 (having owned and dumped the T - a terrible start, which probably condemned the system from the start).

While many here understandably love their CL cameras, it was never about them.  The CL was just a TL2 wrapped in a pho-M body with a built in EVF.  I don’t hink Leica ever intended to maintain that line.  It doesn’t seem to fit their long term plans.  Releasing the CL2, and dumping the TL2, would mean further development of the TL lenses.  I suspect Leica has made a high level decision that it needs to keep the SL system alive.

Long term, Leica is a company which makes high quality, expensive cameras - that means full frame and medium format.  It’s hard for them to justify their pricing, and show quality, in the APS-C end of the market.  Like many here, buyers look at Ricoh, Nikon, Fuji, Canon & Sony (all make APS-C cameras) and can’t justify buying a Leica.

I don’t think blaming Leica’s marketing is even half of the story.  With almost 70 years of M lenses and no competition, it’s easy to see where Leica’s market is.  Making quality (and with the M, compact) lenses for full frame and larger format is where Leica can justify its prices and exclusivity.  The next step will be an expansion of the M line with an EVF, and/or a compact SL to mop up the TL lens users.

[Louis]

26 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Long term, Leica is a company which makes high quality, expensive cameras - that means full frame and medium format.  It’s hard for them to justify their pricing, and show quality, in the APS-C end of the market.  Like many here, buyers look at Ricoh, Nikon, Fuji, Canon & Sony (all make APS-C cameras) and can’t justify buying a Leica.

I don’t think blaming Leica’s marketing is even half of the story.  With almost 70 years of M lenses and no competition, it’s easy to see where Leica’s market is.  Making quality (and with the M, compact) lenses for full frame and larger format is where Leica can justify its prices and exclusivity.  The next step will be an expansion of the M line with an EVF, and/or a compact SL to mop up the TL lens users.

Is this your point of view, or are talking on behalf of Leica!?...

[oldwino]

My gut feeling is the TL & TL2 were produced to use up all of the aluminum bodies they had stacked up in a warehouse. 
The CL was probably an attempt at course correction, but it still was a too expensive camera with already too old electronics. I’m not saying it is/was a bad camera, but Leica does have a tendency to release cameras with “just behind the cutting edge” technology. 

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, Louis said:

Is this your point of view, or are talking on behalf of Leica!?...

Talking on behalf of Leica?  Whatever gave you that idea - just an opinion, as any other comment in this thread.  I guess the only difference is, I accept this is Leica’s decision.  I’ll use my TL2 and the 2 TL lenses til they die, then there will be something else.  I don’t have the confidence to tell Leica how to run their company …

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[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, oldwino said:

My gut feeling is the TL & TL2 were produced to use up all of the aluminum bodies they had stacked up in a warehouse. 
The CL was probably an attempt at course correction, but it still was a too expensive camera with already too old electronics. I’m not saying it is/was a bad camera, but Leica does have a tendency to release cameras with “just behind the cutting edge” technology. 

I doubt they sat on a stack of bodies - they were CNCed, so they could make them to meet demand.

[tritentrue]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

The CL was just a TL2 wrapped in a pho-M body with a built in EVF.  

Eh?  Totally different menu, for starters.  Directional pad, thumbwheel buttons, different battery, top LCD, optional grip, true magnification in the EVF . . . 

And no immediate post-release recall for the CL . . . 

"Just"????   The condescension gets tiresome . . .