Leica CL discontinued?

[lct]

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8 hours ago, wda said:

CL users seeking alternative sanctuary in a full-frame camera are disinclined to suffer a bigger, bulkier, more expensive, and heavier camera body for long. It would be a least desirable choice.

Sure but Leica will not offer an APS alternative apparently. Time to think in terms of L alliance, for those interested in TL lenses at least. 

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Sure but Leica will not offer an APS alternative apparently. Time to think in terms of L alliance, for those interested in TL lenses at least. 

The issue is the size and weight of the camera bodies and lenses, not the sensor format per se. When you read the story of the design and development of the original Olympus OM1 you understand that a fastidiousness towards miniaturization and weight loss produces equipment that is nicer to use and a pleasure to use on more occasions. Sumo-sized equipment like the SL line and lenses for it don’t lead to that pleasure but a sense of penance.

[lct]

13 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

The issue is the size and weight of the camera bodies and lenses, not the sensor format per se. When you read the story of the design and development of the original Olympus OM1 you understand that a fastidiousness towards miniaturization and weight loss produces equipment that is nicer to use and a pleasure to use on more occasions. Sumo-sized equipment like the SL line and lenses for it don’t lead to that pleasure but a sense of penance.

There are not only SL cameras at Wetzlar fortunately. M cameras have always been compact and Q cameras are compact as well. The problem here, as clear as i get it, is the demise of APS and its consequences for APS users, especially TL lenses users. But i may be wrong as often...

[kodachrome]

On 4/28/2022 at 4:33 AM, Simone_DF said:

I can tell you the opposite story. I was in Bangkok a couple of weeks ago, one Leica Boutique ceased operations. There was also a "Cafe Leitz" in the EmQuartier mall, an official collaboration between Leica and a local chain with cameras on display. Closed as well.

The only remaining Leica Boutique was always empty when I passed in front of it.

Anecdotes don't lead us anywhere and tell us only a irrelevant part of the story.

The Leica Store Las Vegas closed....................

[SoCalLeicanator]

2 hours ago, kodachrome said:

The Leica Store Las Vegas closed....................

Well, they can't be doing that badly. . . 

https://www.macfilos.com/2022/07/11/leica-posts-best-financial-results-in-a-century/

And man do I agree about portability.  I recently picked up a Ricoh GRIIIx and having that much imaging power pocketable has led to some dust gathering for my CL AND Q2. . . 

[elambo]

This forum has more anti-brand (anti-Leica) members than any other forum I've ever been a part of. I'm not a photography professional and don't spend much time in those deep trenches -- maybe self-loathing is part of the archetype? Why participate in a conversation about a product you own only to toss garbage on that very product? I suppose it's somehow cathartic, or the angst helps you (not referring to anyone in particular) get back at Leica for their shortcomings. Maybe that's it... everything needs to be perfect for these people, but, of course, nothing ever is. That must be a tough life.

Not that forums drenched in blind praise are any better. Useful conversation is rarely tossed around within those campgrounds.

[SoCalLeicanator]

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21 hours ago, elambo said:

This forum has more anti-brand (anti-Leica) members than any other forum I've ever been a part of. I'm not a photography professional and don't spend much time in those deep trenches -- maybe self-loathing is part of the archetype? Why participate in a conversation about a product you own only to toss garbage on that very product? I suppose it's somehow cathartic, or the angst helps you (not referring to anyone in particular) get back at Leica for their shortcomings. Maybe that's it... everything needs to be perfect for these people, but, of course, nothing ever is. That must be a tough life.

Not that forums drenched in blind praise are any better. Useful conversation is rarely tossed around within those campgrounds.

I see your point, but like many photographers viewed my buy into the CL as a lens, not body, undertaking.  So, to look at about 10K USD investment in glass that may have no home in a few years or at least not an easy to carry home has created more weltschmerz than angst if you ask me.  

Do I think the Ricoh is better than the Q2?  Hell no, but it's meeting a need for image quality without lugging around heavy gear: i.e. the whole reason I bought into the CL in the first place. 

[Le Chef]

It’s not tossing garbage on the product, which is excellent, but on the company and the way it has handled the CL’s demise.
As Jaap has said before you marry the lens system and have affairs with camera bodies. Some of us invested in the TL lens system and believed that it would continue with a CL2, something Leica (namely Stefan Daniel) had said a couple of years ago. I think those of us who take statements like this in good faith have been justifiably disappointed and question why we should stay loyal to the brand.

In the meantime we will continue to use our CL’s and TL lenses until they fall apart or something better comes along that meets the brief of compact and light.

[MJB]

4 hours ago, SoCalLeicanator said:

I see your point, but like many photographers viewed my buy into the CL as a lens, not body, undertaking.  So, to look at about 10K USD investment in glass that may have no home in a few years or at least not an easy to carry home has created more weltschmerz than angst if you ask me.  

Do I think the Ricoh is better than the Q2?  Hell no, but it's meeting a need for image quality without lugging around heavy gear: i.e. the whole reason I bought into the CL in the first place. 

It’s true that the M’s and Q’s are quite a bit smaller than the SL’s, but I would argue that Leica’s APS-C cameras are noticeably even more compact. Not to mention neither the M nor Q can do what the CL/TL can do, namely offer a modern digital camera experience (AF, EVF, etc.) in an interchangeable lens system.  Not to mention the APS-C cameras and lenses are priced at a somewhat more realistic level than the FF offerings will ever be (stratospherically overpriced instead of astronomically overpriced, lol). 

[lct]

3 minutes ago, MJB said:

Not to mention the APS-C cameras and lenses are priced at a somewhat more realistic level than the FF offerings will ever be (stratospherically overpriced instead of astronomically overpriced, lol). 

There are people to buy those FF offerings at least... .

[MJB]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

There are people to buy those FF offerings at least... .

Sure - dentists! Lol. 
 

Seriously, though, I guess you must be right, although we don’t know the sales figures we can assume the APS-C line was no longer profitable. Or perhaps Leica was worried about cannibalization of M sales. I suspect the Q line was what really did the system in, as it occupies the same “entry level” space, but offers a more traditional M-like look and tactile experience.

[lct]

It's just that consumers are not interested in expensive crop cameras. As someone said (don't remember whom ) crop = yes, expensive = yes, but crop + expensive = no.

[MJB]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

It's just that consumers are not interested in expensive crop cameras. As someone said (don't remember whom ) crop = yes, expensive = yes, but crop + expensive = no.

Meh. Fuji just released a body at $2500 and it seems to be well-received. But then Fuji buyers don’t think in arbitrary terms like “crop sensor.”

[jaapv]

46 minutes ago, MJB said:

Sure - dentists! Lol. 
 

Seriously, though, I guess you must be right, although we don’t know the sales figures we can assume the APS-C line was no longer profitable. Or perhaps Leica was worried about cannibalization of M sales. I suspect the Q line was what really did the system in, as it occupies the same “entry level” space, but offers a more traditional M-like look and tactile experience.

Or it was simply one line too many eating up resources that a small company like Leica needs for other projects.

[MJB]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Or it was simply one line too many eating up resources that a small company like Leica needs for other projects.

Agree that this is probably it, but I guess it's another way of saying the same thing (i.e., a successful Q-line led to the demise of the perhaps less successful APS-C line).

[lct]

16 minutes ago, MJB said:

Meh. Fuji just released a body at $2500 and it seems to be well-received. [...]

$2,500 for IBIS, 40fps, 5.76m EVF, articulated screen, etc.... how much would it cost if it were made by Leica? Last time i checked, the Fuji X-E4 was selling for $849 vs $3195 for the CL...

[MJB]

1 hour ago, lct said:

$2,500 for IBIS, 40fps, 5.76m EVF, articulated screen, etc.... how much would it cost if it were made by Leica? Last time i checked, the Fuji X-E4 was selling for $849 vs $3195 for the CL...

And 5 years newer than the CL, so not a fair comparison by any stretch.  But of course, Leicas have never been about competitive spec sheets or pricing commensurate to other brands. Same goes for their full frame cameras. You pay more for the brand and the superior UI/UX.  
 

FWIW, I own an X-E3 and while it is a fine camera it is not even in the same league as the CL in terms of build quality and ergonomics. 

[lct]

4 hours ago, MJB said:

FWIW, I own an X-E3 and while it is a fine camera it is not even in the same league as the CL in terms of build quality and ergonomics.

Same for my X-E2. But a price crop cam users can afford, not $3195...  

[jaapv]

Leica was never about affordability...  Nor about competing on price. It is not 3200, but 2500 and on sale now for 1999 Euro:

https://www.leicastoreamsterdam.nl/camera-systems/leica-cl-tl/

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[lct]

Reminds me of the R-D1. Too expensive at about 3,000 EUR in 2004. Prices dropped to 2,000 EUR for the R-D1s but it was too late. Pixii will not have the same experience hopefully.