Leica CL discontinued?

[MJB]

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1 hour ago, lct said:

Same for my X-E2. But a price crop cam users can afford, not $3195...  

You can make the exact same argument about their FF cameras. $9000 for an M11 makes no logical sense when compared to other FF offerings. And Leica has had no trouble in the past selling premium-priced APS-C X-series cameras as well as rebadged point-and-shoots. At every price point, Leica asks more than the competition, often with fewer features  in return. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by MJB

[lct]

Just now, MJB said:

You can make the exact same argument about their FF cameras. $9000 for an M11 makes no logical sense when compared to other FF offerings. [...]

It is just consumers prepared to pay Leica prices for such or such camera or not. 9,000 is not a problem for the M11 but 3,000 was a problem for the CL. As simple as that. Consumers are not interested in that expensive crop cameras. 

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[wda]

I am sorry that I can no longer contribute to this laudable thread. The fact is, I am too busy enjoying my fine and relevant Leica CL system.

Edited July 17, 2022 by wda

[lct]

Still using my CL with pleasure together with the M11. Same UI more or less, same M lenses, similar EVF, same general feeling in LV mode. I just miss IBIS in the M11 but not in low res cameras so i don't need anything else in the CL. Keep it as is, sell it for 2,000 and i could be tempted for a backup but it is too late anyway. 

[MJB]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Still using my CL with pleasure together with the M11. Same UI more or less, same M lenses, similar EVF, same general feeling in LV mode. I just miss IBIS in the M11 but not in low res cameras so i don't need anything else in the CL. Keep it as is, sell it for 2,000 and i could be tempted for a backup but it is too late anyway. 

“low res camera” 😂😂😂

Edited July 17, 2022 by MJB

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, lct said:

Reminds me of the R-D1. Too expensive at about 3,000 EUR in 2004. Prices dropped to 2,000 EUR for the R-D1s but it was too late. Pixii will not have the same experience hopefully. 

R-D1s was a limited production meant for Japan only.

[lct]

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3 minutes ago, MJB said:

“low res camera” 😂😂😂

Compared to the M11 (60mp) or my A7r2 (42mp), the CL (24mp) is on the low side indeed but it beats my Digilux 1 (4mp). Reassuring no? . Just kidding.

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[lct]

Just now, jaapv said:

R-D1s was a limited production meant for Japan only.

Got mine in Italy but was sold elsewhere in Europe if i remember well. German brochure here:

EpsonRD1s_Brochure_DE.pdf

[jaapv]

Yes, in the end they had to sell worldwide through lack of interest. IIRC they had 10.000 to get rid of.  The M8 @ 4920 € eclipsed the Epson completely despite its teething troubles. The RD-1x  (RD-1II)(2009) fared even worse. 6MP and nearly as IR sensitive as the M8 made it rather unattractive, especially compared to the M9.

[lct]

Got my R-D1 in 2004 and R-D1s in August 2006. Digital Leicas did not exist yet if memory serves. As for sensitivity to IR it was there indeed but much less disturbing than that of my M8.2. For most of my pics, like this one (link), i did not feel the need to use IR-cut filters. The sensor stack of R-D1/R-D1s was not as thin as that of the Leica though. Little to do with the CL though, sorry for the OT.

[jaapv]

The M8 was announced in the late summer of 2006 for Photokina and the first batch hit the market in October/November. I used IR cut filters on the Nikon D70 (same sensor/electronics as the RD-1) 

[lct]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

The M8 was announced in the late summer of 2006 for Photokina and the first batch hit the market in October/November. I used IR cut filters on the Nikon D70 (same sensor/electronics as the RD-1) 

The R-D1 had the sensor of the Nikon D100. The Nikon D70, that i owned as well, had a thinner sensor stack. Its main problem was not IR contamination in my own experience (i did not use IR-cut filters then) but aliasing artefacts as you can see on the containers here. https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-qpgF6Nk/0/07a69377/X4/i-qpgF6Nk-X4.jpg

[MJB]

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Edited July 17, 2022 by MJB

[smcmason]

On 7/17/2022 at 3:33 AM, wda said:

I am sorry that I can no longer contribute to this laudable thread. The fact is, I am too busy enjoying my fine and relevant Leica CL system.

I'm convinced you are on the right path. I got caught up with the idea of "L-Mount obsolescence" and sold my two CLs and my S1R. I've run through so many different systems this year and now I've come crawling back. Should've just kept shooting the gear I enjoyed. Currently shooting my SL, R6, and Q2, but will pick up another CL and S1R someday. Even after rotating through wonderfully capable cameras like the A7rIV and GFX 100S, I feel more at home with the Leicas. And the S1R is such a wonderful value with fantastic ergonomics for me and intuitive menu system. It may be heavy as a cinderblock and not the prettiest to look at, but it sure does work. Just say no thank you to the L-Mount doomsday prophets! 🙂

[elambo]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:33 AM, wda said:

I am sorry that I can no longer contribute to this laudable thread. The fact is, I am too busy enjoying my fine and relevant Leica CL system.

No doubt there has been an overabundance of emotion at times, leading to some opinions that don't align with practicality, but it's been an informative thread. My interests have also bowed out.

[Cerrito Kid]

Leica's recent announcement of their discontinuation of their Leica CL and other APC cameras is most disingenuous.  The obvious reason for dropping this product line is that they could not run it profitably, and that in turns suggests poor product management and marketing.  The CL was presumably designed for the serious and relatively affluent amateur rather than the working professional.  In that market there is no evidence of a fall off in consumer interest as can be witnessed by Canon's very recent introduction of a new line of APC cameras.  The Japanese companies like Canon  and Sony (arguably the most innovative camera company) are just better run companies that know how to market.  Or how about the Fujifilm X-H2S which gets a gold star on DPreview.

 

Unable to sell to the relatively affluent, Leica has opted to limit its market to professionals and the very highly affluent consumers (e.g. the top 1%ers).  Leica is a company shrinking in size. I do exclude here the point and shoot Panasonic cameras that they sell with a Leica sticker glued on them.  They are a grossly over priced which any smart consumer will pass over.  And why not, Leica —with the CL  discontinuation— demonstrates a total disinterest (or lack of skill) in the consumer market.

 

For the record, my primary camera has been the Q using the CL for travel. I used my first Leica back in college in the 1960s.  As I became affluent, I purchased many Leica’s — but no more.  As one who earned his living as a Wall Street equity research analyst, let me warn you that poor management (which I fear for Leica) can spill over in to poor engineering and product design.     

[lct]

1 hour ago, Cerrito Kid said:

As one who earned his living as a Wall Street equity research analyst, let me warn you that poor management (which I fear for Leica) can spill over in to poor engineering and product design.

Even Wall Street is against Leica? Hope Blackstone can survive to that .

[garygraphy]

9 hours ago, Cerrito Kid said:

Leica's recent announcement of their discontinuation of their Leica CL and other APC cameras is most disingenuous.  The obvious reason for dropping this product line is that they could not run it profitably, and that in turns suggests poor product management and marketing.  The CL was presumably designed for the serious and relatively affluent amateur rather than the working professional.  In that market there is no evidence of a fall off in consumer interest as can be witnessed by Canon's very recent introduction of a new line of APC cameras.  The Japanese companies like Canon  and Sony (arguably the most innovative camera company) are just better run companies that know how to market.  Or how about the Fujifilm X-H2S which gets a gold star on DPreview.

 

Unable to sell to the relatively affluent, Leica has opted to limit its market to professionals and the very highly affluent consumers (e.g. the top 1%ers).  Leica is a company shrinking in size. I do exclude here the point and shoot Panasonic cameras that they sell with a Leica sticker glued on them.  They are a grossly over priced which any smart consumer will pass over.  And why not, Leica —with the CL  discontinuation— demonstrates a total disinterest (or lack of skill) in the consumer market.

 

For the record, my primary camera has been the Q using the CL for travel. I used my first Leica back in college in the 1960s.  As I became affluent, I purchased many Leica’s — but no more.  As one who earned his living as a Wall Street equity research analyst, let me warn you that poor management (which I fear for Leica) can spill over in to poor engineering and product design.     

I hear you that the main target audience for the CL is the affluent user, but the success of Q in that segment has got them to re-align the product strategy. So many affluent influencers have picked up the Q and are extremely satisfied with the digital zoom - they just don't know any better nor do they care about proper focal lengths, other than having a great image and carrying the Leica badge.

Ultimately I see it as a success of the Q beyond its original target audience that led to the demise of the CL.

With that, I do hope the strength (and profit contribution) of the Q extending beyond just 28mm to a 40mm or 50mm version.

Edited October 27, 2022 by garygraphy

[garygraphy]

8 hours ago, lct said:

Even Wall Street is against Leica? Hope Blackstone can survive to that .

Blackstone is praying hard that if Leica can beyond luxury cameras to luxury watches, they can convince a luxury brands player Leica is not a one trick pony and can leverage its brand to other markets, and sell it $$$

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[Le Chef]

11 hours ago, garygraphy said:

Blackstone is praying hard that if Leica can beyond luxury cameras to luxury watches, they can convince a luxury brands player Leica is not a one trick pony and can leverage its brand to other markets, and sell it $$$

They have no credibility in watches. The movements of the Leica watches are bought in which reveals they have no expertise. If they think they have credibility to go head to head with the likes of Patek Philippe or Lange & Sohne, then their management team needs to be replaced.