LTM 5cm: Elmar f/3.5 and Summicron collapsible

[LocalHero1953]

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In LTM mount, how does the Elmar 5cm f/3.5 Red Scale (reportedly 'better' than the black scale) compare to the Summicron 5cm f/2 collapsible (reportedly 'inferior' to the rigid)? Is there a benefit in having f/2 or is it too soft for common use?

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[romanus53]

talking about performance of lenses more than 60 years old condition of the lens is essential, otherwise - if you need f2 you have no choice. I own and use both as a couple of other, even older, lenses and all are useabla but different, mostly character. There was no bad Leica lens, all are still useable with good results. Maybe the Elmar is a tack sharper and shows more contrast but differencess are not that great to my eyes. You may have a look at MTF-curves in the Leica-pocket-book

[a.noctilux]

Strange that I use the two types for so long and never ask myself to compare them.

Because ( now that I think why ) they are NOT comparable.

The tiny Elmar 3.5/5cm even compared to the Summicron collapsible in size, one is "pockettable", the other one hardly is.

Think of the aperture setting on Elmar front, but 113g light can not be "forgotten", even the "yellow" collapsible f/2/5cm with 216g is not so heavy .

 

I use on film and sensor without any fear, I happen to have the "yellow" Summicron 5cm and many Elmar 5cm or 50mm, they are in themselves

already different and Summicron has it's own quality/faults not comparable to Elmar.

 

Paul,

Just try them as they are, as good condition lenses of their ages can be the main factor for choice.

I encounter so many bad lenses with hazed or scratched glasses, that when I fancy buying old lenses now I prepare myself not to be desappointed.

 

[LocalHero1953]

Thanks for the replies.

@a.noctiluxI hadn't realised there was a significant difference in size between the two when they are collapsed.

@a.noctilux @romanus53 I will take it to heart that condition is important!.

What is the Summicron like when shot at f/2-f/3.5?

[romanus53]

Hi Paul, there are tons of pictures here https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268173-the-view-through-older-glass/

some shots with coll. Summicron

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above wide open, below at f4

Edited March 17, 2022 by romanus53
forgot to name the lens ;-)

[luigi bertolotti]

As above said, it depends also on lens' conditions... I have 2 Summicrons collapsible, one in SM very old (920.xxx) the other in BM, later(1.3xx.xxx) and happens that the older is better... and have a Summarit 1,5 that is in such excellent conditions that I consider it my best LTM 50... of course it's not comparable to the compactness of rectratable 50s, but even at 1,5 is a perfectly usable lens... and stands up fine against my Summicron V4 at normal closings in the 5,6-8 range

[spydrxx]

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I love both in B&W shots, and have found the Elmar particularly appealing wide open on digital. As mentioned above, if you need f/2 you can't get it with the Elmar. With the right lighting it works well for some subjects.

[oldwino]

I have a sample size of one...but, my collapsible Summicron was pretty glowy at f2, very good at f2.8 and excellent from f4. My Elmar (uncoated) needs to be stopped down to f4.5-6.3 to show its best. 

I also had a rigid Summicron that beat the collapsible by one stop. But again, a sample size of "1". 

I think a lot depends on the copy.

[Anbaric]

If you're considering which to buy, and don't have a Summitar, you might want to add that to your list. A coated Summitar seems easier to find in nice condition than a collapsible Summicron, and I find it's a very decent lens (Erwin Puts reported it tested better than the Summicron wide open at the centre, though the Summicron was better at the edges).

[wizard]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb oldwino:

my collapsible Summicron was pretty glowy at f2, very good at f2.8 and excellent from f4.

Same with mine (and my sample size is 2, but they both perform indistinguishable).

vor 1 Stunde schrieb oldwino:

My Elmar (uncoated) needs to be stopped down to f4.5-6.3 to show its best. 

I only have coated Elmars (all red scale versions). One of them seems to perform best at full aperture (and appears to be a little weaker stopped down to f8), the other two are quite good at full aperture and excellent when stopped down one or two stops. I guess it's a matter of adjustment.

[LocalHero1953]

7 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

If you're considering which to buy, and don't have a Summitar, you might want to add that to your list. A coated Summitar seems easier to find in nice condition than a collapsible Summicron, and I find it's a very decent lens (Erwin Puts reported it tested better than the Summicron wide open at the centre, though the Summicron was better at the edges).

I have three black scale Elmars, all acquired with LTM bodies, so I was thinking of swapping one of them out for a different, coated, 5cm. I am leaning towards a red scale Elmar for the size, but wondered if I would miss anything by not having a wider aperture option, hence my question. Yes, a coated Summitar is an option - I think I had read that the front elements were a bit soft and easily marked, but if I can find one in good condition I wouldn't be adverse.

(I know the correct answer is to have one - or more - of each, but I'm trying to fight the habit).

[spydrxx]

To resist is futile😄

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have three black scale Elmars, all acquired with LTM bodies, so I was thinking of swapping one of them out for a different, coated, 5cm. I am leaning towards a red scale Elmar for the size, but wondered if I would miss anything by not having a wider aperture option, hence my question. Yes, a coated Summitar is an option - I think I had read that the front elements were a bit soft and easily marked, but if I can find one in good condition I wouldn't be adverse.

(I know the correct answer is to have one - or more - of each, but I'm trying to fight the habit).

I don't think any of these early 50/2 lenses have hard glass and coatings by modern standards, but some are easier to find in decent condition than others. The Summar seems worst of all - maybe the glass was particularly soft and/or they are more susceptible to internal haze. I still regret passing on a nice one I saw at a camera fair that had been coated at some point. I've seen more nice Summitars than collapsible Summicrons in LTM, but perhaps the Summitar is just a more common lens than the Summicron in that mount. Elmars in general are so plentiful you shouldn't have to wait long for a good one to turn up. My 3.5 black scale, with early coating or maybe just natural tarnish, is nice enough but pretty prone to flare. Maybe the later coating on the red scale or the 2.8 would be worth the upgrade...

Edited March 17, 2022 by Anbaric

[david strachan]

I only have one 50mm Leica lens...the collapsible Summicron.  It took me a long time to find the one I wanted, and then had it CLA'd.

My other 50mm LTM lenses are Jupiter and several Canons (f1.8,  f1.4,  f1.2).

The Summicron is the best of the lenses, although never any definitive testing.  While it has lower contrast than modern lenses, I do like that processing in LR allows contrast, sharpness, and clarity to be very adaptable and broad-range corrections.

This was the lens which helped put Leica into the world of quality photography. 

All best....

[nitroplait]

15 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have three black scale Elmars, all acquired with LTM bodies, so I was thinking of swapping one of them out for a different, coated, 5cm. I am leaning towards a red scale Elmar for the size, but wondered if I would miss anything by not having a wider aperture option, hence my question.

Was the Red Scale Elmar recomputed or was it just coating differences that made it different from the black scale?

I have many duplicate older Nikkor SLR lenses in the same optical design, but with differences in coating because of the transition from single to multi-coating. The differences in the results are minuscule - and if there is a difference, it only show up in the extremes - and even then, the differences may just as well be due to sample variation or wear to the lens, I don't really know.

If the alleged red scale improvement is only in coating, I probably wouldn't think going from black to red scale would make much difference.

That is not to say you can't have joy from variations of the same lens design.
I have a uncoated 50/3.5 Elmar of the 1920's variety and a coated 50/3.5 red scale from the 1950's. In this case I see enough difference to find joy in swapping between the two for different looks.
I also own an 50/2.8 Elmar-M, the new design from the 90's, which is as sharp as any M lens from that era - but I think I am good now when it comes to 50mm Elmar lenses ..... unless perhaps if I find nice Elmar 50/2.8 in LTM or M mount 😉 

Edited March 18, 2022 by nitroplait

[wizard]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb nitroplait:

Was the Red Scale Elmar recomputed ...

AFAIK, a recomputation of the Elmar 5 cm lens took place around serial number 939 xxx, if I remember correctly (I might be wrong on that number though). Lens element curvatures are somewhat different from that point onwards. However, I am not sure whether that recomputation coincided with the introduction of the red scale version. In any case, the red scale Elmar will likely be the best performer of all vintage Elmars, as it is the most modern of them (with regard to glass types, coatings and computation). I may confirm that it is an excellent lens, so good in fact that it was this lens that made me enter the Leica world again after using Pentax cameras and lenses exclusively for more than 20 years.

[nitroplait]

While re-computation sometimes results in improvements, it may also be done out of necessity because certain glass types becomes unavailable, or for cost measures - I don't know if there is empirical evidence showing actual improvements in this case.

The question, of course, is if it would be beneficial for OP to add a Red Scale to complement a Black Scale. My guess (never having owned the Black Scale, mind you) is that it probably will not make a predictable meaningful difference.

With 3 black scale at hand, OP has the unique opportunity to cherrypick the the nicest sample, which may well be better than any random red scale, when keeping in mind that sample variation and the effect of 70 years of usage will have significant influence on the quality of an individual lens.

Edited March 18, 2022 by nitroplait

[LocalHero1953]

12 minutes ago, nitroplait said:

While re-computation sometimes results in improvements, it may also be done out of necessity because certain glass types becomes unavailable, or for cost measures - I don't know if there is empirical evidence showing actual improvements in this case.

The question, of course, is if it would be beneficial for OP to add a Red Scale to complement a Black Scale. My guess (never having owned the Black Scale, mind you) is that it probably will not make a predictable meaningful difference.

With 3 black scale at hand, OP has the unique opportunity to cherrypick the the nicest sample, which may well be better than any random red scale, when keeping in mind that sample variation and the effect of 70 years of usage will have significant influence on the quality of an individual lens.

My youngest black scale is in exceptionally clean optical condition, so you may be right about not noticing better performance.

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[LocalHero1953]

So I went out for dinner this evening, drank a prosecco and two large glasses of red wine, came home and bought a supposedly pristine Summitar on ebay. I hope I don't regret it.

[qqphot]

I very much like my Summitar. I find it has good contrast and is very sharp stopped down a little, and wide open it's got "character" but it's not terrible.

I have yet to find a collapsible summicron that was not badly damaged, and sellers are asking thousands of dollars for ones that even look decent.

Edited March 19, 2022 by qqphot