M11 IQ comparable to S?

[setuporg]

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There are opinions in the M11 forum that it is reaching into the MF territory, when comparing with X1D/907 or GFX.

It sounds like the DR has increased and some folks say it replaces the MF.

Is there anyone here who believes that M11 can replace an S for you?

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[John McMaster]

Not used an M11, but if doing larger prints I would keep the S I suspect

john

[wizard]

vor einer Stunde schrieb John McMaster:

... but if doing larger prints I would keep the S I suspect

Those must be VERY large prints. House sized prints and over.

[BernardC]

That question brings me back.

When I was just learning how to develop film, the question was "will Kodak TechPan replace large format?", then "will 35mm T-Max 100 replace medium format?"

Eventually it became "will the Canon 5D Mark 2 replace medium format digital?" After all, it offered more megapixels than many digital backs!

We saw the same questions every time Sony came-out with an incrementally improved A7r (a quick lookup tells me they are up to version "IVa" now)

Ironically, things went the other way. Medium format digital is replacing the A7r, and other high-res 35mm digital cameras, even when there's no megapixel advantage. The reason is that it's much easier to create successful "high-performance images" with a medium format camera.

It's a matter of tolerances. Sure, you can get the maximum out of a smaller format, provided that you have the best technique and the finest lenses (which are not cheap!). Or you can shoot normally with a larger-sensor camera.

[Pieter12]

Each camera has its strengths, smaller size is less obtrusive,  easier to carry around and make quicker, candid shots.However, there is no substitute for the larger viewfinder of an S, no matter how many megapixels on the sensor. That leads to better composition and an overall better picture-taking experience.

Lewis Baltz's photos taken on Kodak Recording film with a Leica 35mm camera, were carefully set up on a tripod and rival 4x5 images in quality. So if you take time and care you can often get outstanding results, no matter the size. Conversely, you can easily get total crap with the most expensive and sophisticated equipment.

[Stuart Richardson]

The SL2 replaced the S for me, so I would say yes. I think the biggest differences are more about handling and lenses than anything else. Anything about 35-40 megapixels or larger with low iso and excellent glass is enough for even 100x150cm prints. The question becomes, what do I like to use? I am not saying there aren’t differences, but I think they tend to become a matter of preference rather than clear technical superiority. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[setuporg]

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@Stuart Richardson it's interesting to hear this from you, as a staunch S fan!  I've not found that SL2 replaces the S even with the SL 35 and 50 APOs.  The contrast is harsher and the dynamic range is not all there.  I get great images from S every time and they look clearly different to me.  I am wondering whether M11 would change that for those who have both...

[sincurves]

I have both and find them excellent in their own way. They may be similar in terms of resolution and colors, but the S3 is a level up in handling and overall IQ to me. M11 is perfect for street, travel and “pick-up-and-go”, S3 for everything else.

[Jon Warwick]

4 minutes ago, setuporg said:

@Stuart Richardson it's interesting to hear this from you, as a staunch S fan!  I've not found that SL2 replaces the S even with the SL 35 and 50 APOs.  The contrast is harsher and the dynamic range is not all there.  I get great images from S every time and they look clearly different to me.  I am wondering whether M11 would change that for those who have both...

I had an SL2 & SL 50 APO, and yes, the lens and overall output has high contrast. The image can be opened up pretty easily when editing the DNG, of course, and I’ve done this fairly routinely with that system.

I do wonder if part of the “S look” that some people perceive comes from the lenses being designed to have less contrast and less deep blacks, which gives the impression of relative “gentleness”? When one thinks of filters that help achieve a more cinematic look, a lot of them rely on lowering contrast (and perhaps adding some halation) …..

Compared to the SL Summicrons, I’ve found the SL 50 Summilux is closer to achieving that gentler look out the gate, and as I say I think a lot is achievable to get a rendering to taste in post production anyhow.

What I like about the M or SL system is the massive range of lenses that cover full frame, allowing many alternative lens renderings. Compared to trying to find non native lenses to cover a medium format sensor like the GFX, the SL or M has tons of options (for example, one can use a pre-ASPH or even the reissued Noctilux 1.2 if one wants a gentler and less contrasty look).

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I learned on slide film and still like that look, so whatever the SL2 dynamic range is (14 stops?) it is already way more than I typically need. I also found that I preferred the way it dealt with it. It is more in the shadows, while it is in the highlights in the S3. Rarely have I needed to overexpose a photo…being able to underexpose and push the shadows is much more useful than to pull highlights. Overall, I still think the S006 is the best S camera. I could not get on with either the S007 or S3. Then the SL2 came along and just seemed to work better than all of them for what I do. I would love if it had an OVF and handled like an R9, but as it is, I think it is Leica’s best camera since the S006. 

[Dsauro]

I have just purchased the M11.  I have only viewed the files on the screen but plan on printing this weekend. 
 

From the first pass on the screen, and with good capture discipline (I.e., electronic shutter, tripod, all manual, ETTR, M50 APO, M 135), the files are crisp, and stunning.  BTW, I also find Capture one to be superior to LR on initial import.  
 

BUT….and a print will be needed to validate….the S3 files are pure magic and still superior.  Given the S lens ecosystem as a complement, there is something I can’t explain about the special output. The S3 just puts a smile on my face ( insert S4 rumors here…).   Maybe from a technical stand point, the pixel pitch of the S3 still out performs the smaller pitch of the FF sensor.  But this is an assumption.  

I will be printing this weekend and compare the same scene between the S3 and the M11 and report !

Either way, for those of use fortunate enough to experience both the S3 and M11……we should be very pleased.  I for one am thrilled (insert S4 rumors here  ) 

[LeicaR10]

Setuporg,  IMO the M11 does not replace the S3.  Several reasons.  First, the S3 sensor pixels are larger than the M11.  Second, in my discussions with Leica, the human eye can only detect about 50 mps of detail.  The rest are a waste. The idea of "I need more MPs" is a marketing scam that way too many photographers buy into believing the pap.  I found most photographers have never mastered their camera and lenses based on my teaching experience with hundreds of workshop students over 3 decades.  Most people never print, nor do they even consider printing large as in 4 ft x 6 ft or larger in my former business days. The S camera sensor especially the S3 has better color IMO combined with the rendering of the S lenses are cinematic in effect.  No other Leica camera renders like an S camera and S lenses.  The S system is in a class unto itself.  My experience I found most of the time the color does not need to be adjusted with the S3 files.  I owned the M11 for almost 4 weeks, it found a new home here in Australia.  Personally, I could not bond with the camera that has become overly complicated in practical use and most of all, if I need to print larger than 4' X 6', I would borrow an S3 from my buddy here and do it the right way.  If you watch Thorsten Overgaard's initial video review on the M11, he says what I discovered as well.   Again, just my opinions of using all the S cameras and most S lenses and all the digital M cameras since 2008 for my former business.  I now use a M10-M, SL2-S and SL2.  Everyone has their own ideas and experiences with cameras and lenses.  At the end of the day, it is always about the content of the photograph, based on ones creative vision and mastering the tools at hand to create a superb photograph.  r/ Mark

Edited March 2, 2022 by LeicaR10

[Dsauro]

2 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Setuporg,  IMO the M11 does not replace the S3.  Several reasons.  First, the S3 sensor pixels are larger than the M11.  Second, in my discussions with Leica, the human eye can only detect about 50 mps of detail.  The rest are a waste. The idea of "I need more MPs" is a marketing scam that way too many photographers buy into believing the pap.  I found most photographers have never mastered their camera and lenses based on my teaching experience with hundreds of workshop students over 3 decades.  Most people never print, nor do they even consider printing large as in 4 ft x 6 ft or larger in my former business days. The S camera sensor especially the S3 has better color IMO combined with the rendering of the S lenses are cinematic in effect.  No other Leica camera renders like an S camera and S lenses.  The S system is in a class unto itself.  My experience I found most of the time the color does not need to be adjusted with the S3 files.  I owned the M11 for almost 4 weeks, it found a new home here in Australia.  Personally, I could not bond with the camera that has become overly complicated in practical use and most of all, if I need to print larger than 4' X 6', I would borrow an S3 from my buddy here and do it the right way.  If you watch Thorsten Overgaard's initial video review on the M11, he says what I discovered as well.   Again, just my opinions of using all the S cameras and most S lenses and all the digital M cameras since 2008 for my former business.  I now use a M10-M, SL2-S and SL2.  Everyone has their own ideas and experiences with cameras and lenses.  At the end of the day, it is always about the content of the photograph, based on ones creative vision and mastering the tools at hand to create a superb photograph.  r/ Mark

Perfectly and eloquently replied 

[ZHNL]

M11 might have technically the best Leica sensor I ever used. Color seems also lovely and extremely stable over wide range of light condition. This is the M I have in mind for a long time that can do everything at peak in FF land. 
 

I have no comment on S and M11 comparison. Nothing really changed. S for me never means technically the best, IMHO you miss the point if that is your expectation. There are technical data out there if you want to know. There is nothing changed. There is no OVF viewing, there is no elegant and simple control, there is no S glass look and there is no S look.
They are totally different system. If you ask, you may well choose M11 or A7r4 or Z7/9.   For small aperture landscape shooting, it is hard to justify S for me long time ago but I still enjoy to bring S with me whenever possible.( travel by car) S always brought memorable images for me anytime I bring them. They are special in a way that no other system give me the same feeling. 
 

This is not really a news for me that see capable sensor from other format or manufactures. Nikon and Sony sensor are always great for a while now, so were GFX or X1D. The difference is minimal if there is any, period. 

[davidmknoble]

No question, I believe the M11 is approaching dynamic range of the S series, but there is two main differences that mean the M11 cannot replace the S

1. The S is medium format, which has a different look because of longer focal lengths than a 35mm
2. The S is weather resistant - I've used it in cold rain in Iceland with no trouble - I would not subject my M or M lenses to that!

 

[Herr Barnack]

On 3/1/2022 at 10:19 AM, setuporg said:

There are opinions in the M11 forum that it is reaching into the MF territory, when comparing with X1D/907 or GFX.

It sounds like the DR has increased and some folks say it replaces the MF.

Is there anyone here who believes that M11 can replace an S for you?

I do not own an S camera, but the M11 gives me even less reason to consider the S line than I had before. 

Given that my M-P 240 is capable of producing exhibit quality 24x36 inch prints with its "ancient" sensor, the M11 will easily make 32x48 inch prints of equal or higher image quality. 

If I can make prints that large and sell them at equally large prices, the M11 will meet my needs.  And the M11 and M lenses will be much easier to travel with.

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[davidmknoble]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I do not own an S camera, but the M11 gives me even less reason to consider the S line than I had before. 

It depends on the type of photography you do.  The M (which I also use) is great for documentary and quick shooting.  It is also small and good for travel.

However, the megapixels do not determine the look of the photograph, the lens and the sensor dimensions do.  The SL and S systems are weather resistant which makes a large difference for work in weather conditions.  I would never have taken my M out on the coast with 35mph winds at the end of a hurricane, but the S did a wonderful job. 

So, it depends…

[Stuart Richardson]

If you live here, eventually all cameras are weather resistant...

I used an M here for years in rainy/windy conditions. Not in downpour, but in drizzle and snow etc. Never skipped a beat. The S is of course better, but usually conditions bad enough to require full sealing are not that photogenic. There are exceptions of course.

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[mgrayson3]

I wouldn't have done this with an M..

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[Stuart Richardson]

You probably could have...I don't want to harp on this too much, as different people have different risk tolerance, but M cameras are pretty well sealed, and there are not so many obvious points of water ingress, the biggest being the mount, which is an area where water is not overly likely to do damage, unless it flows further back into the camera. I would not advise them as a main camera for terrible conditions, but they do very well in light rain or blowing snow. I would not keep them out in a monsoon for hours, however.