lct Posted March 30, 2022 Share #301 Posted March 30, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 30 minutes ago, jaapv said: It is not about sensor size but about pixel size. That's what i understood since digital exists but some good M11 users here seem in denial about that. Are they "defending" their gear or is there any truth in that? All i can say is my 12MP A7s has cleaner high isos than my 42MP A7r2 and i don't need theories to see that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 30, 2022 Posted March 30, 2022 Hi lct, Take a look here Problems getting sharp images by 60MP. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SrMi Posted March 30, 2022 Share #302 Posted March 30, 2022 3 hours ago, lct said: That's what i understood since digital exists but some good M11 users here seem in denial about that. Are they "defending" their gear or is there any truth in that? All i can say is my 12MP A7s has cleaner high isos than my 42MP A7r2 and i don't need theories to see that. @jaapv was talking about the camera shake effect, not about noise. At the pixel level, the noise is higher with small pixels. At the output level, the pixel size does not matter much. It is the sensor size that matters. What matters more to you: are you a pixel peeper, or do you look at images? I enjoy pixel peeping, but I always consider the output to determine image quality. Here is a comparison at ISO 12800 between a7S and M10 (match smallest). I do not see much difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 30, 2022 Share #303 Posted March 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, SrMi said: [...] What matters more to you: are you a pixel peeper, or do you look at images? I enjoy pixel peeping, but I always consider the output to determine image quality. So do i like everybody i guess but it is the M11 that interests me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 30, 2022 Share #304 Posted March 30, 2022 8 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said: Sensor size is irrelevant, other than concerns the differently shaped camera might have. I have a Thumbie and a grip on my CL. I don't see any camera slap issues. It's the small size and lack of good ergonomics that's the big differentiator, for me. The ONLY things that affect the visibility of camera shake are the output size, shuttter speed, focal length and the amount of camera movement during exposure. Resolution, sensor size and pixel size are irrelevant. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. Output size. Focal length. Camera movement. Increase any of them you make the shake more visible. Decrease any to make it less visable. Opposite for shutter speed. Everything else is irrelevant. Pixel binning speeds up the camera and saves hard drive space compared to just shooting at 60MP. It has no effect on camera shake. Gordon Sorry, I didn’t mean to divert the discussion into camera shake. I was speculating about pixel size. Ergonomics and focal length aside, and looking purely at the much (over?) discussed issue of motion blur across smaller pixels, I may have missed it, but it hasn’t been a issue with the TL2, why should it be an issue with the M11? I shoot the same focal lengths with the TL2 and my M cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted March 30, 2022 Share #305 Posted March 30, 2022 9 hours ago, jaapv said: It is not about sensor size but about pixel size. Maybe I'm lost. This topic is moving around a bit. Neither sensor size or pixel size has any relevance to getting sharper images at 24 vs 60 MP for the same output size. If we compare the CL and M10 with an equivalent angle of view and output size the visible shake will be identical in amount. If we compare a M10 and a M11 with an equivalent angle of view and output size the visible shake will be identical in amount. If we compare a M10 and a M11 with an equivalent angle of view where the M11 output is larger then we will see more visable shake in the M11 image. If we compare a M10 and a M11 with an equivalent angle of view where the M10 output is larger then we will see more visable shake in the M10 image up until the lower resolution of the M10 means that the lack of detail is more influential than the amount of shake on the apperance of the image. A change in pixel size will change the *look* of the blur, very slightly but not the amount, for the same sensor size. However there are so many pixels at even 24MP (24 million) that I doubt anyone could see any visual difference at all. It's only at extremely low resolutions ( a few pixels) or tiny detail that it would be visible. It's not really relevant to modern photography except that it may has an incredibly slight impact on bokeh. Incredibly slight. I don't think I could see it. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmen Posted March 30, 2022 Share #306 Posted March 30, 2022 10 hours ago, jaapv said: It is not about sensor size but about pixel size. Would you mind clarifying exactly what you mean to say? Every way that I can think of what you’re saying is false, but maybe you’re saying something else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted March 30, 2022 Share #307 Posted March 30, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) If we compare a M11 and a M11 with an equivalent angle of view we would see different shake.... sorry gordon, could not help it! lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franka373 Posted March 30, 2022 Share #308 Posted March 30, 2022 I am dense. What is meant by same output size? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted March 30, 2022 Share #309 Posted March 30, 2022 4 minutes ago, Franka373 said: I am dense. What is meant by same output size? Print of the same size, or exported JPG at the same size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 30, 2022 Share #310 Posted March 30, 2022 2 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said: Maybe I'm lost. This topic is moving around a bit. Neither sensor size or pixel size has any relevance to getting sharper images at 24 vs 60 MP for the same output size. If we compare the CL and M10 with an equivalent angle of view and output size the visible shake will be identical in amount. If we compare a M10 and a M11 with an equivalent angle of view and output size the visible shake will be identical in amount. If we compare a M10 and a M11 with an equivalent angle of view where the M11 output is larger then we will see more visable shake in the M11 image. If we compare a M10 and a M11 with an equivalent angle of view where the M10 output is larger then we will see more visable shake in the M10 image up until the lower resolution of the M10 means that the lack of detail is more influential than the amount of shake on the apperance of the image. A change in pixel size will change the *look* of the blur, very slightly but not the amount, for the same sensor size. However there are so many pixels at even 24MP (24 million) that I doubt anyone could see any visual difference at all. It's only at extremely low resolutions ( a few pixels) or tiny detail that it would be visible. It's not really relevant to modern photography except that it may has an incredibly slight impact on bokeh. Incredibly slight. I don't think I could see it. Gordon Who said sharp? Sharp is an undefined value And you are forgetting the difference in magnification. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 31, 2022 Share #311 Posted March 31, 2022 Here comes another rabbit hole ... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmen Posted March 31, 2022 Share #312 Posted March 31, 2022 Maybe we can start discussing the size of a photon... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franka373 Posted March 31, 2022 Share #313 Posted March 31, 2022 33 minutes ago, harmen said: Maybe we can start discussing the size of a photon... Just make sure the output you compare it to is the same size. 😉 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franka373 Posted March 31, 2022 Share #314 Posted March 31, 2022 4 hours ago, SrMi said: Print of the same size, or exported JPG at the same size. This is a head scratcher for me. So if I print two photos at 24x36 inches each with one from a 10mp camera and one from a 60mp camera there will not be a visible difference in blur between the two? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoarFM Posted March 31, 2022 Share #315 Posted March 31, 2022 4 hours ago, jaapv said: Who said sharp? Sharp is an undefined value And you are forgetting the difference in magnification. 1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said: Here comes another rabbit hole . He's right. Sharp is undefined.When people talk of sharpness I just assume they are talking about a combination of resolution and contrast. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted March 31, 2022 Share #316 Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, jaapv said: Who said sharp? Sharp is an undefined value And you are forgetting the difference in magnification. "Problems getting sharp images at 60MP" is the title of the thread. And I'm not forgetting magnification (between sensor sizes). I stated that sensor size (and by extrapolation magnification) was irrelevant. It is. Magnification differences (to have the same output sizes) would be offset by the difference in focal length, between sensor sizes, to have the same angle of view. Focal length and output magnification cancel each other out if the angle of view and the output size are the same. Gordon p.s I think what needs to be said in this thread, has been. I shall bow out ungracefully. If someone doesn't get it by now, more input from me isn't going to help. Edited March 31, 2022 by FlashGordonPhotography 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooper Posted March 31, 2022 Share #317 Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Sharpness is indeed not defined - or at least does not have a unit and a measurement system - but we all know what it means in terms of rendering. Just go in the M11 pictures section of this forum and check it by yourselves: 50% of the pictures posted there are not OOF, but blurry. I dont know how to make a link towards another post in another thread. But if this works, it should illustrate the subject. Is this picture “sharp” ?? Not blaming the photographer but the camera. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328239-the-leica-m11-images-thread/?do=findComment&comment=4408736 Edited March 31, 2022 by snooper Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooper Posted March 31, 2022 Share #318 Posted March 31, 2022 One of mine, once again an easy one, full of light, APO 50 at f:2.0, ISO 1000 and 1/200th which is 4 x focal length. To me this image is not “sharp” on the eye, and it’s not normal that an image is being this blurry at 1/200th with a 50mm! I have a SL2 and never ever had a single “sharpness” issue with that one. M10M ? No problem either. Q2 ? Piece of cake. So I accept every critics in every way on my way to take pictures, I accept all scientific demos that sharpness does not exist and whatever square root of the pixel count multiplied by the distance to the moon gives you proper viewing distance, but at the end of the day my conclusion is that this camera is not for me, after 76 shots. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/329865-problems-getting-sharp-images-by-60mp/?do=findComment&comment=4410115'>More sharing options...
pgk Posted March 31, 2022 Share #319 Posted March 31, 2022 57 minutes ago, snooper said: Sharpness is indeed not defined - or at least does not have a unit and a measurement system - but we all know what it means in terms of rendering. Sharpness and motion blur are not necessarily the same thing. I shoot long exposures whilst moving the camera deliberately, nevertheless some parts of the image can still be (intentionally) 'sharp' and this is when edge detail is aligned with angular deviation due to motion of the camera. I think that the topic under discussion here is actually the visible effect of unwanted angular motion which will increase depending upon sensor pixel size. Angular motion is directional so it may affect 'sharpness' in one direction but not in another. Clearly, the smaller the pixel the less angular deviation required to spread a detail of an image over more than one pixel, leading to a lack of apparent 'sharness' in the direction of angular travel. Of course angular travel may be in more than one direction (shake). Which basically all means that to get images which fully exploit the use of a small format high Pixel sensor may well require more exacting technique (similar to using medium format or 35mm in film days) in ensuring minimal angular motion (tripod!). I really don't know why this is such a difficult concept to appreciate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datsch Posted March 31, 2022 Share #320 Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, snooper said: One of mine, once again an easy one, full of light, APO 50 at f:2.0, ISO 1000 and 1/200th which is 4 x focal length. To me this image is not “sharp” on the eye, and it’s not normal that an image is being this blurry at 1/200th with a 50mm! I have a SL2 and never ever had a single “sharpness” issue with that one. M10M ? No problem either. Q2 ? Piece of cake. So I accept every critics in every way on my way to take pictures, I accept all scientific demos that sharpness does not exist and whatever square root of the pixel count multiplied by the distance to the moon gives you proper viewing distance, but at the end of the day my conclusion is that this camera is not for me, after 76 shots. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! A dab of USM sharpening works wonders, though, even on your jpg ... click for better quality of course Edited March 31, 2022 by Datsch 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now