Is the M10 the last “Real” Leica ?

[adan]

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Well, I'm not here to persuade people into getting an M11 (I'm still on the fence myself).

I just want to make sure people are not persuading themselves (and others) out of an M11 based on faulty information or perceptions.

I'm an old-school dinosaur myself. I can remember when Leica Ms were the lightest pro-built interchangeable-lens cameras.

And in that regard, the M11 (black) is even more old-school and "real" and a better match to the long series of M film cameras, than the M10. By 130 grams or 1/4 pound.

Of course it is not the only or decisive characteristic of the M11 (or the M10).

[otto.f]

36 minutes ago, adan said:

Well, I'm not here to persuade people into getting an M11 (I'm still on the fence myself).

I just want to make sure people are not persuading themselves (and others) out of an M11 based on faulty information or perceptions.

I'm an old-school dinosaur myself. I can remember when Leica Ms were the lightest pro-built interchangeable-lens cameras.

And in that regard, the M11 (black) is even more old-school and "real" and a better match to the long series of M film cameras, than the M10. By 130 grams or 1/4 pound.

Of course it is not the only or decisive characteristic of the M11 (or the M10).

Except that in the meantime the Leica M department has produced Summiluxes galore which are well served by a not too lightweight body, not in the least with 60Mp images.

[adan]

Oh goody - the lenses are too heavy, so let's make the camera heavier also.

If I want heavy, I can find many cameras to provide that - and frankly with better performance than a camera with a 24x36 sensor (regardless of megapixels) - and frankly much less expensive.

[archive_all]

9 hours ago, adan said:

Well, I'm not here to persuade people into getting an M11 (I'm still on the fence myself).

I just want to make sure people are not persuading themselves (and others) out of an M11 based on faulty information or perceptions.

I'm an old-school dinosaur myself. I can remember when Leica Ms were the lightest pro-built interchangeable-lens cameras.

And in that regard, the M11 (black) is even more old-school and "real" and a better match to the long series of M film cameras, than the M10. By 130 grams or 1/4 pound.

Of course it is not the only or decisive characteristic of the M11 (or the M10).

I've tried the M11 and I wouldn't say I'm persuading myself out of it. Would I buy an M11? Maybe, maybe used  or for at least a grand less ( I think it's overpriced) or a 11P model. Beyond the increased battery life they haven't improved what I was hoping for (faster start up, less shutter lag for rare occasions when I use live view but it drives me nuts when I do, flush screen, +more/less). If I were currently shopping I would lean toward a really good price on an M10R since I have the normal 10 and I like the platform and design better. Plus I didn't find the cost or output justifiable for me between the 11 and the plain 10. That said what I like is that it's retained a nice rangefinder and it'll likely see support for a longer period than the 10 or 10R. I'm not buying into the negatives like the bugs, motion blur, this and that but looking at it from a practical standpoint, mainly will it improve my images? No, not at all. Has it worsened the images from the 10? No, not at all. Is my 10 still enjoyable to use? Yes. I'll wait though and maybe pick an 11 or 11P up or a used 10R in a year or two or three.

All that said I think the 11 is still a real Leica M but if it loses the RF then it won't be.

Re: lenses @adan you're right, I didn't notice it feeling unbalanced even thought the body is lighter. It feels like a similar weight and balance to film M's.

[Peter Zapp]

For me the M10 was the big leap forward: body size, no quirks (M8's IR filter), decent high ISO, decent EVF, nice user interface (ISO dial). It's a mature product. From there further improvements are welcome, but were marginal: longer battery live, charging by USB-C. 

I would appreciate an EVF with no or with shorter black-out, a stable and fast remote control app that makes LCD, menu and cursor buttons redundant, an improved menu that enables a preselection of lens profiles (the lenses I own or carry, most have no 6bit code).

I would appreciate a quieter shutter and no red dot, but for this wouldn't pay €1000.

[Herr Barnack]

On 3/16/2022 at 5:43 PM, tomconte said:

I don't buy Leica's line on that. Do you have any idea how nasty the ICs are to make? You literally use poisons. If leica were really so concerned, they would stop making everything with electronics.

Then Leica should quit making all cameras other than the MP and MA. 

Oh, wait - there are dreadful chemicals involved in film photography; we can't have that!!

If Leica were really so concerned, they would shut down the company, lay off all workers and start selling art paper and drawing pencils.

Not color pencils, though - only certified vegan charcoal based drawing pencils. 😎

Edited March 18, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Fedro]

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there are lot of things that I like in the M11, one of them is weight (I have the black chrome)

for walking around it reminds me of the M262 which I always regretted selling

not for the purist, but to me it is a real Leica for sure

[lburn]

I entirely agree with you.  A great first post which makes points clearly and they certainly needed to be made. I only hope Leica listen and have the sense to save the M camera.  I have the M10 and there is no way that I am remotely attracted to the M11.

[palmerfralick]

On 2/1/2022 at 2:01 PM, Knipsknecht said:

I would like to politely disagree😉. Every company on earth that wants to earn money is competing with others for the attention of potential customers. And the latest iteration of their M series shows this fundamental law of economics much clearer than any other M before.

And we have to keep in mind that it’s not so long ago that Leica went almost bankrupt and out of the camera market because (!) they didn’t payed attention to the market and thought they were just “competing with themselves”. Any company that thinks so is doomed!

Kind of reminds me of the angst of Porsche disciples when the Cayenne was introduced.

 

[jaapv]

On 2/1/2022 at 11:18 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, but it also had the metering off the curtain option by default, which the M11 does not have. I think it is the removal of that option that disturbs some.

No, it was the [M7/M4-2/M3/IIIg/II Model D].😁
There is probably a correlation between your choice and either your age, or how long you have been using Leicas!

Film camera bodies did not influence image quality that much compared to lenses. Digital bodies are roughly equally weighted with lenses, so there is bound to be a greater emphasis on upgrading the bodies so as not to be left behind as sensor, exposure and focusing tech improve.

Hmm..I have been using M cameras since 1977 and have owned most models. Still I don’t see the correlation. 

[MikeMyers]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Still I don’t see the correlation.

I think he is comparing all the Leica cameras with built-in metering, with the light being reflected off the shutter curtains, and been measured, with the new M11 system which uses the sensor to measure the light, meaning the shutter has to open to enable this.

[jaapv]

Well, as far as I am aware, the M6 TTL measured the flash exposure off the film with the shutter open, making the whole argument a bit of a quicksand one. It is not as if measuring this way is a radical new invention. 

[MikeMyers]

Confused - how could a person take a meter reading, so as to set the camera exposure?  If the shutter is open, and the camera is taking a measurement, that frame would be wasted?

I thought the recent issue of why the M11 sounds different, is because it has to open the shutter to take a meter reading before you take a picture.  With digital, that's easy - but it sounds impossible for film???

[adan]

5 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Confused - how could a person take a meter reading, so as to set the camera exposure?  If the shutter is open, and the camera is taking a measurement, that frame would be wasted?

Jaap did say "flash exposure" - fire shutter - flash triggers - meter measure brightness refected off film as the flash exposure is being made - the flash is quenched or turned off instantaneous when "just enough" light has been detected. (Fortunately most film emulsions are a pretty-consistent "gray/brown" approximately equal to an 18% gray card.)

All it takes is a hyper-fast thyristor "on/off" switch in the flash unit's internal circuitry. Been around for about 30 years.

A cheaper, but more distracting method is to fire a preflash reflected off the shutter curtain before it opens, then use that metering to control the actual flash exposure time.

However, as early as the Olympus OM2 (aperture priority auto-exposure), the camera could similarly meter non-flash exposures: open the shutter - read the ambient light reflecting off the film during the exposure - and close the shutter when exactly the right amount of exposure had been detected. Thereby correcting for any change in the light during the exposure (e.g. the sun going behind a cloud at the instant the shutter button was pressed).

The OM2 occasionally produced anomalies - the regular metering would "predict" 1/250th sec. during the normal off-the-shutter-curtain pre-reading, and then change to 1/300th or 1/200th in the actual shutter speed used during the exposure.

But since there was no EXIF data back then to record which shutter speed was actually used, no one knew or cared so long as the picture looked good.

 

 

[250swb]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:53 AM, MikeMyers said:

Unfortunately, if I understand correctly, what I'm asking for is now impossible.  I want the "real" brass body, and I want it in black.  I don't think Leica can do that any more.  On the positive side, for me, that's what I've already got, so I'm all set - but others who might want it are out of luck, unless/until Leica finds a new way to make black bodies with brass, not aluminum.

Before Leica even released the M11 they'll have an upgrade cycle planned, they won't have thrown all the goodies into the first version. The idea being they leave some leeway for mild dissatisfaction in some users who will grab the chance to buy essentially the same camera twice, like some people buy the same shoes twice but in different colours. So in around a years time there will be a brass version with a nicer coat of paint and some other minor upgrades changes.

Edited March 24, 2022 by 250swb

[MikeMyers]

Question - which camera comes closest to emulating a LEICA M3 - the M10, or the M11?

Of the M8, M9, M10, and M11, only one of these feels like the same camera as the M3, but shooting digital instead of film.  The M8 and M9 feel bloated.  The M10 got back to the original. The M11 is off in outer space, with a bazillion add-ons.

At one point, the M3 (along with the Nikon SP) was the very definition of a refined rangefinder camera.  I bought an M2, not the M3, but I flat out loved it.  As I recall, I couldn't afford the M3, but this is back in the 1970's.  

I don't want an M11, maybe for a similar reason for why I don't want a Nikon Z9.  My Nikon F2 was all I really wanted, and the F4 was the same thing on steroids - lovely camera, but I enjoyed the simplicity of the F2.

 

To my way of thinking, the M11 has moved away from the basic M3 in every way but for the viewfinder - it's now 2022, and viewfinders are expected to do so much more (as in the Fuji where with a flip of a switch, you can see the digital version in the viewfinder.  There's also the lack of a coupling between camera and lens, which made no difference back in the days of the M3, but now it makes a huge difference.  If the next Leica M12 was of a different design, with a truly coupled lens, and an optical/digital viewfinder, that might push me over the edge.

What I think is not relevant.  I'm 78, and I have enjoyed cameras for my whole life.  Of all the newer cameras, the one that feels like it was designed specifically for me, is either the Leica M10 and/or the Nikon Df (both of which I now have).  The M10 is my definition of rangefinder perfection, and the Df is my definition of DSLR perfection.  Nobody else needs to agree.

 

I gotta admit though, I've never had an M11 in my hands, and one of these days I will get to try one.  I got real excited as we were getting close to the release date, but then I gradually lost interest, realizing that I can already do everything I want/need to do with my M10.  ......and the M10 "feels" like an M3, except that the M3 has a better viewfinder.

 

[MikeMyers]

5 hours ago, adan said:

Jaap did say "flash exposure" - fire shutter - flash triggers - meter measure brightness refected off film as the flash exposure is being made - the flash is quenched or turned off instantaneous when "just enough" light has been detected. (Fortunately most film emulsions are a pretty-consistent "gray/brown" approximately equal to an 18% gray card.)

I almost feel like asking "what is a flash?"   I can't remember the last time I took an image with a flash attached to my camera's accessory shoe.  The built-in flash is wonderful on the Fuji X100 cameras, and could be just as nice if built into an M body.  I still have my ancient flash units - but no idea if they would be safe to use on a modern M camera.  It is a nice bonus on the Fuji though.  I guess there are times when flash would be helpful, and I even got to wondering if I should buy a new one, but that's for a separate discussion.

I was watching the very old TV show "Man With a Camera" starring Charles Bronson last night, and he always has his handy M3 with him, and a flash unit that goes on top, which takes "flash bulbs", and the fold-out blades that surround it.  

For 20 years or so now, the only flash photos I have taken are with a camera that has a built-in flash.........     .....I'll go look for an appropriate thread later today, to see what's being said about using flash on an M.

[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

The M8 and M9 feel bloated.

I’m curious, why did the M8 and M8 feel bloated?  I felt that way about the M(240), but the M9 was relatively simple by comparison, and not much nigger than an M3 …

Edited March 24, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[matted]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m curious, why did the M8 and M8 feel bloated?  I felt that way about the M(240), but the M9 was relatively simple by comparison, and not much nigger than an M3 …

The M9 and M8 are 2 whole mm deeper than an M10 (and all film Ms). Bigger, yes, and noticeable if you look for it, but I personally would not call them “bloated”. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[adan]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m curious, why did the M8 and M8 feel bloated?

31 minutes ago, matted said:

The M9 and M8 are 2 whole mm deeper than an M10 (and all film Ms).

There is a syndrome among some Leica users we might call "The Princess and the Pea" syndrome.

http://hca.gilead.org.il/princess.html

Personally, I always considered said Princess (and Prince) to be spoiled brats rather than heroine/heroes.

(Not that I minded the M10 getting a little slimmer, but it was the performance characteristics that sealed the deal.)