Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[Derbyshire Man]

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On 11/8/2023 at 11:06 AM, Kwesi said:

Fortunately Leica is smart enough to realize that any EVF only camera designed to be used exclusively with manual focus lenses is a nonstarter. Auto diaphragm and the option of autofocus are essential elements in any EVF camera. 

I don't agree at all! I value compactness, hence the desire for the M body, autofocus I can take or leave, especially if it causes additional bulk. A cutting edge EVF and focus peaking is plenty +/- focus magnification (I turn this off). I have no problem at all with this on the Q2M.

 

I want to state though that I would not want any new camera to *replace* the OVF model, merely as an option.

[pgk]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, Smudgerer said:

An interesting idea........Rather like a digital version of this camera I just found mint for €185,00, a digital Leica version would come for slightly more €€€€ though.

Well the last Leica version was the MD-2 which was last made in 1986 according to the wiki here on the forum. Oddly enough demand must have been low ever since because it would have been easy enough to reintroduce by leaving off the integrated viewfinder of any of the film models.😀

[lct]

Leica Ms without rangefinder are not a novelty. The EVF-M should be the fifth IINW. Below Leica M1, MD, MDa and MD-2.

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[raizans]

On 11/8/2023 at 3:06 AM, Kwesi said:

Fortunately Leica is smart enough to realize that any EVF only camera designed to be used exclusively with manual focus lenses is a nonstarter. Auto diaphragm and the option of autofocus are essential elements in any EVF camera. 

Everybody who uses the Visoflex and live view 🥱

[pgk]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Leica Ms without rangefinder are not a novelty. The EVF-M should be the fifth IINW. Below Leica M1, MD, MDa and MD-2.

Which were all 'specialist' cameras intended for scientific or other technical uses. The youngest is 37 years old.

[lct]

9 minutes ago, pgk said:

Which were all 'specialist' cameras intended for scientific or other technical uses. The youngest is 37 years old.

The MD-2 has been launched in 1976 if my memory serves me right. It's high time it got a facelift anyway. The EVF-M would be ideal for that.

[setuporg]

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3 hours ago, lct said:

Leica Ms without rangefinder are not a novelty. The EVF-M should be the fifth IINW. Below Leica M1, MD, MDa and MD-2.

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Horrible nightmares, like blind cyclopes, that better be forgotten and never repeated!

[jaapv]

Not really. The M1 was a stripped basic model for zone focus, the MD was for scientific use on a microscope and other similar applications.  

[evikne]

The viewfinder window is perhaps the most iconic design element on an M. While it's not necessary on an EVF-M, it has to be there, if only for decoration, or they'll have to find another use for it.

Edited November 10, 2023 by evikne

[adan]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:03 PM, evikne said:

An EVF that shows both the actual exposure and depth of field, with a simulated RF patch overlay, would combine the best of both worlds. But I don't know if it would be technically feasible.

Fujifilm sort-of simulates a split-image focusing aid, in the X-series. Not very elegant (yet) - but that is mostly just dependent on how much effort and processing power can be put into the computer graphics/CGI required (on a real-time basis).

Also requires that the image sensor have phase-detect pixels - classic split-image focusing being THE original "analog phase detection" (triangulating the subject distance from two different observation-points).  (image link from dpreview).

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One big hurdle is this: with the Leica M Galilean viewfinder, and the glass prisms used for SLR split-image screens, the things being aligned in/on the viewfinder always appear in focus (always sharp), even when the lens is out of focus. Since we look "through" the glass at a virtual image, with no defined image plane. 

That can't be done with a split-image derived from a flat LCD image. It will go in and out of focus with the lens, and not have crisp sharp edges to align until it is - already aligned. See the central detail in the image above - split images blurry, left and right.

However, there is work being done on "perforated LCDs" - LCDs that work with holes punched through them, thus disrupting the homogenous rows and columns of pixels.

https://meritofficial.com/apples-iphone-14-pro-is-revealed-to-have-a-pill-shaped-perforated-screen-with-face-id-hidden-under-the-screen

In theory, a camera EVF LCD could be perforated in the center, to install an "old-school" glass-prism split-image pair. Just as the ground-glass focus screens of SLRs were "perforated" with a round hole, to glue in their split-image prisms.

But that would be permanently baked into the hardware, and not user-removable without a lot of fuss, and dust getting into both the finder and the camera, which many would not like.

Leica being expert in "bespoke" products - they might provide two versions of a hypothetical Mevf. With or without a perforated split-image screen. For a Leica price.  

In any event, I expect Leica would "prototype" the idea as an option in the existing EVF cameras (Q and SL series), and see how it performs: both technically, and in the marketplace.

[setuporg]

There could be not two, but three versions of an M-mount EVF camera!

• EVF only (not an M)
• EVF+OVF (an M, bastardized)
• OVF only with add-on EVF that's more integrated than an existing one (an M, optionally bastardized/debastardized)

Edited November 10, 2023 by setuporg

[jaapv]

#4:  None

[pgk]

2 hours ago, adan said:

In theory, a camera EVF LCD could be perforated in the center, to install an "old-school" glass-prism split-image pair.

Sounds like a lot of trouble to go to just to replace an existing system which works perfectly well.

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, pgk said:

Sounds like a lot of trouble to go to just to replace an existing system which works perfectly well.

Apparently, it does not work well for everybody. I am fine with the current implementation.

Also, replacing is not an option being discussed. Instead, the request is for an additional model.

Edited November 10, 2023 by SrMi

[cboy]

With the advent of the A9lll global shutter sensor will make the idea of an M evf more plausible. No mechanical shutter means ibis can be implemented; no need to groan about shutter slap/noise. Lol

 

[setuporg]

9 minutes ago, cboy said:

With the advent of the A9lll global shutter sensor will make the idea of an M evf more plausible. No mechanical shutter means ibis can be implemented; no need to groan about shutter slap/noise. Lol

I dread that day.  Already with M11P, shooting a wide open Noct at daylight, got 5000 exposure and it just blinked, with the shutted speed momentarily replaced by ---.  Thought something's off, but it was the electronic shutter.  Silent and soulless.  Even the healthy stapler sound of M11 is better!  And now it wakes up with a happy pre-stapling.  We have about a year to enjoy it I guess.

[algrove]

45 minutes ago, setuporg said:

I dread that day.  Already with M11P, shooting a wide open Noct at daylight, got 5000 exposure and it just blinked, with the shutted speed momentarily replaced by ---.  Thought something's off, but it was the electronic shutter.  Silent and soulless.  Even the healthy stapler sound of M11 is better!  And now it wakes up with a happy pre-stapling.  We have about a year to enjoy it I guess.

Way more than a year since  Sony will keep it in house for more than one year I bet.

[algrove]

1 hour ago, cboy said:

With the advent of the A9lll global shutter sensor will make the idea of an M evf more plausible. No mechanical shutter means ibis can be implemented; no need to groan about shutter slap/noise. Lol

 

Cudos to Sony for this model, but as for trying one out I WILL NOT. Tried some A7R models and never felt at one with any of them and hated the menu system.

Thing is if Leica were ever to put a GS in an M it would put many other manufacturers on their back feet. I will hope for an SL4S with one. At this time I believe the SL3 has already been developed and any SL3S is not far behind.

[evikne]

5 hours ago, setuporg said:

Already with M11P, shooting a wide open Noct at daylight, got 5000 exposure and it just blinked, with the shutted speed momentarily replaced by ---.  Thought something's off, but it was the electronic shutter.  Silent and soulless.

Isn't there some kind of haptic feedback, so you can "feel" that you're taking the picture?

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Hallo,

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[adan]

9 hours ago, pgk said:

Sounds like a lot of trouble to go to just to replace an existing system which works perfectly well.

Well, I suppose that depends on which "existing system" one means - and one's definition of "works perfectly well."