Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[SrMi]

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5 minutes ago, otto.f said:

I do have it with LV on my M systematically though

M11? What kind of delay?

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[jaapv]

Yes, but that is add-on on a rangefinder camera You can never expect the experience of a dedicated EVF camera, any more than the Visoflexes on film Ms could compete with SLR cameras. 

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes, but that is add-on on a rangefinder camera You can never expect the experience of a dedicated EVF camera, any more than the Visoflexes on film Ms could compete with SLR cameras. 

It looks to me that LV on M11's rear LCD (not an add-on) is of similar quality as on SL/CL.

[evikne]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

It might look a bit strange without the viewfinder windows (not sure I like the M-D look), but otherwise unchanged, for use with M lenses.

I actually forgot about this – that an EVF M won't need a viewfinder window, and an M without this will look weird. I hope it will still have such a window, but perhaps with a different function, or just for decoration (something à la the M10-D's thumb rest).

[lct]

6 minutes ago, evikne said:

[...] an EVF M won't need a viewfinder window, and an M without this will look weird.

Déjà vu on Leica MD, MD-2 and Post cameras.

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[NigelG]

23 minutes ago, evikne said:

I actually forgot about this – that an EVF M won't need a viewfinder window, and an M without this will look weird. I hope it will still have such a window, but perhaps with a different function, or just for decoration (something à la the M10-D's thumb rest).

Or you could put some sensors there…a la the Digilux 2

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Edited February 17, 2023 by NigelG

[jaapv]

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38 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It looks to me that LV on M11's rear LCD (not an add-on) is of similar quality as on SL/CL.

I wouldn’t know. I’m not that good at dirty-nappy photography  

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Jipster said:

What do you mean by "a base model"? I don't particularly care for the M11 (too many megapixels for me, diffraction and low light worries), but I don't know whether that's what you have in mind or something else.

A bit much shorthand on my part, sorry.

I liked the M9.  It had issues, but I still use the original Monochrom.  I also like the M10.  It was an M9 upgrade, to my mind.  Both the M(240) and the M11 strike me as confused.  For me, the next M digital should be just like the M10, but with improved electronics, perhaps internal memory and the click out battery.  Cropping, different resolutions, permanent live view and other new things on the M11, I don’t want.

I see my M-A getting a lot more use once my Monochrom and M10-D have bits fail which can’t be repaired.

[Jipster]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

A bit much shorthand on my part, sorry.

I liked the M9.  It had issues, but I still use the original Monochrom.  I also like the M10.  It was an M9 upgrade, to my mind.  Both the M(240) and the M11 strike me as confused.  For me, the next M digital should be just like the M10, but with improved electronics, perhaps internal memory and the click out battery.  Cropping, different resolutions, permanent live view and other new things on the M11, I don’t want.

I see my M-A getting a lot more use once my Monochrom and M10-D have bits fail which can’t be repaired.

Got it. Note that the “permanent live view” is a little bit misleading. It’s metering off the sensor, but that’s not live VIEW literally speaking. That one, I have mixed feelings about, as I like a more accurate  metering than you are getting on my M10 (not that the metering is bad on the M10, but it’s a little quirky).

[IkarusJohn]

I find centre weight metering off the shutter more reliable than off the live sensor (hence my use of “live view” - the shutter is permanently open). 

Each to their own. Metering off the sensor is still available with the M10. 
 

Edited February 18, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I find centre weight metering off the shutter more reliable than off the live sensor (hence my use of “live view” - the shutter is permanently open). 

Each to their own. Metering off the sensor is still available with the M10. 
 

Not available on M10 in RF mode.

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

SL/CL users, raise your hand if you ever had an issue with a viewfinder delay…

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Every EVF I've owned camera is slightly behind real time.  Not usually much of a problem, but truly precise positioning of moving subjects requires a certain amount of luck.

In other news, had lunch with a friend of mine who brought along an X100V which I got a few minutes with. They've come a long way since I had the X100S. I'm still not a fan of the jumping frame line, but the improved magnification/VF optics has made it far less distracting and generally pleasant experience.  Overall, a really fun little camera.  In some ways playing with it has further cemented my view that I while I can live with an EVF or OVF only camera, I greatly prefer the flexibility provided by switch hitters.  So much so in fact, that I might dust off some of my old Fuji glass and pick up an X-Pro4 if it ever appears. 

 

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Not available on M10 in RF mode.

And your point?

If you want multi-field metering on an M10, just go into live view; and with the M10-D, slap on the EVF.

Multi-field metering is available on the M10; it's appeal, however, is that centre-weighted metering is available with the shutter closed.

This all seems very familiar.  Have we been here before?

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

And your point?

If you want multi-field metering on an M10, just go into live view; and with the M10-D, slap on the EVF.

Multi-field metering is available on the M10; it's appeal, however, is that centre-weighted metering is available with the shutter closed.

This all seems very familiar.  Have we been here before?

The point is that those who prefer using RF cannot use multi-field metering with M10, even if multi-field works better for them. So forcing those users into LV is a suboptimal solution. After all, RF is raison d'être for digital Ms.

[cboy]

EVF just pairs well with AF imo. If you have only EVF one will be seeing marching ants (focus peaking) all day long as a focusing aid or constantly punch in focus to use manual lenses. For myself i would find this quite a distracting experience from a rangefinder patch unless they invent an digital rf patch overlay similar to fujis digital split microprism.

The reason why all other EVF based cameras like the Q, SL, x100v etc are popular is because they have AF as their primary  focusing mode. Having a SL and making it with rangefinder styled EVF with built in AF adapter is more a logical step to me than taking a M and removing the rangefinder, for which it stands, and replacing it with an EVF. Stefan Daniel is against removing the rangefinder as i understand. The only way i see the EVF M happening is with a lag-less free global shutter or stacked sensor like in the Z9.

Imagine they eventually developed an AF adapter almost as quick and silent as using a native AF lens. With PDAF in the soon to be SL3 thats a high possiblity.

Edited February 18, 2023 by cboy

[lct]

3 hours ago, cboy said:

EVF just pairs well with AF imo. If you have only EVF one will be seeing marching ants (focus peaking) all day long as a focusing aid or constantly punch in focus to use manual lenses. For myself i would find this quite a distracting experience from a rangefinder patch unless they invent an digital rf patch overlay similar to fujis digital split microprism [...].

Distracting for you perhaps but not for me, we are all different . I have 30+ years of RF experience and my digital CL and Sony A7r2 mod are used with M lenses almost exclusively. The only thing i miss with them is auto zoom i find only in LV mode on M cameras. AF is another story and could be offered possibly by a Techart or, why not, a Leica AF adapter working on SL3 or SL4. Works fine, with some limitations, on my A7r2 mod but is not made for the M mount the EVF-M is based upon by some of us here and by LSI now. YMMV.

[jakontil]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

The point is that those who prefer using RF cannot use multi-field metering with M10, even if multi-field works better for them. So forcing those users into LV is a suboptimal solution. After all, RF is raison d'être for digital Ms.

Relax SrMi, you will get your M like body with EVF down in the future, don’t worry, new modern and potential buyer will surely prefer EVF, if leica want to live, they would listen

hopefully M will stay M with RF

[jaapv]

13 hours ago, SrMi said:

It looks to me that LV on M11's rear LCD (not an add-on) is of similar quality as on SL/CL.

The delay is not in the quality of the screen but in the electronic/digital part. My remark was about the EVF though. 

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[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

The point is that those who prefer using RF cannot use multi-field metering with M10, even if multi-field works better for them. So forcing those users into LV is a suboptimal solution. After all, RF is raison d'être for digital Ms.

True, but an artificially imposed limitation by the firmware. I've mentioned/asked/begged/pleaded for years for the ability to disable the rear display in LV for exactly this reason. Had they done so perhaps they could have avoided all the 'what the hell is the stupid shutter doing' M11 comments as many more likely would have used the alternate metering modes at least occasionally.  But with no Visoflex, once anyone who tried spot or multi realized the rear display had to be on continuously the entire notion was, quite reasonably, dismissed as unusable.  

[Guest]

Having recently come from the Q2 to the M11, and using a 35mm lens I have had no need to use the EVF, either screen or Visoflex 2. I find it really awkward using the manual focus, focus highlights, and focus "zoom" together. The whole process is confused.

The only bugbear is that there is no diopter adjustment for the RF and using glasses really reduces the field of view. I ended up buying a very expensive diopter lens, and now all is good.

I think that EVF and auto focus work better together, and an interchangeable lens Q type system might be the best way forward for Leica.

For me, the M series is a great range finder camera with an adequate EVF to be used if the need arises. And the Q series is a great AF EVF solution with an adequate MF mode

I don't think a hybrid version of the two will fully satisfy many folk.