meaningful and meaningless M upgrades

[setuporg]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

When mapping out your Leica strategy, it's instructive to look back of the upgrades so far.

I've joined the club in March 2017, shortly after M10 was released.  I've enjoyed the M10 thoroughly until M10-R was announced, and then traded mine in.  At that time the trade-in value of an M10 was $4,5K, so I had to pay $4K.

What baffled me the most was the M10-P upgrade.  Literally the only reason was the quiet shutter.  In the Leica interviews from the time the engineers frankly talked about what could they come up with for the P, and the quiet shutter was born.  The touchscreen is pretty much useless to me, and I haven't seen anyone who upgraded for that, or the level, for chrissakes (most people stay vertical by design).

The forum was full of folks admitting that they'd never upgrade for that but ran to the store the moment the P came out.  So for the stupidest upgrade ever, not changing anything -- an iota, a bit, a metric ounce! -- in image quality, folks rushed to part with their perfect M10 and a wad of cash then.

The M10-R had a new sensor, which again was the only difference.  But if you shot M10 and got blown highlights a lot, you knew it would be worth it for the flagship M.  It was a much more substantial upgrade than P.  The ridiculous P upgrade should have never been done without the new sensor.  It's a cosmetic upgrade like the script, no dot, or black paint, and should have been a style variation.

Given that, the M11 is the first substantial upgrade since the M10.  It changes several features.  It changes the sensor, the baseplate, battery, and metering mode, the charging, the shutter behavior.

We might argue about the need for all of the new features, the failures of craftsmanship and QA (extremely worrying), and the cost, but given how many people here upgraded from M10 to M10-P for basically absolutely no reason, it's worth putting these things into perspective -- at least we have a substantial departure, and actual upgrade.

What I'd like to see is Leica offering those who upgraded to P or R a discount on the actual upgrade to M11, because we funded it with that kind of tiny, incremental, and often unnecessary upgrades.

When you rush to upgrade an M, think of the ridiculous P and the mob rush to upgrade to it, and don't join such a mob next time.

Given the half-bakedness of M11, the M11-P must address all of the complaints and be not a cosmetic, but a real upgrade.

Edited January 23, 2022 by setuporg

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[digitalfx]

Meaningless to you is important to the next guy. Why does it matter if other people upgrade? it's their choice and their cash.

"Given the half-bakedness of M11, the M11-P must address all of the complaints and be not a cosmetic, but a real upgrade."

What exactly is half baked? I love the M11, there is nothing about it that is half baked.

 

[setuporg]

3 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

What exactly is half baked? I love the M11, there is nothing about it that is half baked.

Quality of course.  See the complaints so far.  Half baked means not completely baked, eg each fn button must have been cooked to perfection.

Of course folks are free to do as they please, but we arrive at some consensus here about what makes sense.  I'd like to call attention to the fact that some previous upgrades were ridiculous and this one is not.  The new folks can then also take into account the fact that others judge certain upgrades less meaningful than others.

3 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

Meaningless to you is important to the next guy. Why does it matter if other people upgrade? it's their choice and their cash.

Edited January 23, 2022 by setuporg

[Jeff S]

The M10-P was business as usual; minor update with cosmetic changes.  The M10-R was the outlier (along with the M10-Monochrom); all new sensor and sensor technology (dual gain, moved electronics, pixel shape, etc), derived from S3 architecture. Ordinarily a new sensor warrants a new iteration, as in M11.  
 

One person’s meaningless is another’s special.  Sales tell the story.  Leica knows its customers.

Jeff

[setuporg]

5 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

One person’s meaningless is another’s special.  Sales tell the story.  Leica knows its customers.

Unless we demand better, they should feel free to shell out $4K for every cosmetic twist of a P, of course.  BTW there's never been an M10-RP!:)

It would be useful for the customers to get their act together and demand quality and substance in upgrades, as well as an accumulated benefit.  Otherwise many will jump off the bandwagon.

Edited January 23, 2022 by setuporg

[snooper]

18 minutes ago, setuporg said:

(…) a discount on the actual upgrade to M11, because we funded it with that kind of tiny, incremental, and often unnecessary upgrades.

The guys @ marketing are still laughing about your comment. They will probably get a pay raise starting tomorrow, because this is exactly what they do for a living. 😁

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 minute ago, setuporg said:

Unless we demand better

Again, sales tell the story.  Simple supply and demand.  Obviously enough others don’t share your opinion regarding ‘meaningless’.  I’m sure there are those here who will await and buy an M11-P, at substantial cost, even if it has minor cosmetic changes (and don’t minimize the benefit of reduced bugs that early adopters typically face).  
 

Jeff

[digitalfx]

Frankly, I could care less what the internet thinks. I'll upgrade if I want to upgrade. Regarding the "complaints" thread...half of the comments in it our ridiculous...not sure why we need someone cutting a pasting every single complaint found online, valid or not into a post. Its counter  productive. On the other hand a legitimate thread with valid bugs that have been confirmed by multiple users would be useful.

[Jeff S]

Keep in mind, too, that not everyone buys every new upgrade. M10-P buyers may have last bought an M9 or M240, or might only buy P cycle versions, etc.  In that case, the changes for them might be substantial.

Jeff

[SrMi]

16 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Quality of course.  See the complaints so far.  Half baked means not completely baked, eg each fn button must have been cooked to perfection.

Of course folks are free to do as they please, but we arrive at some consensus here about what makes sense.  I'd like to call attention to the fact that some previous upgrades were ridiculous and this one is not.  The new folks can then also take into account the fact that others judge certain upgrades less meaningful than others.

Had I known about all the possible issues (and my camera got many of those and more), I would have still bought the M11. Despite all the reported issues, I can shoot with my "half-baked" M11 at least as efficiently as with my M10-R. 
It seems that Leica has completely revamped the software, as the UI does not bear many similarities with previous M cameras. Still, they should have fixed the bugs before shipping, and no, they should not have delayed the launch by another three months to test more :). 

[digitalfx]

48 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Keep in mind, too, that not everyone buys every new upgrade. M10-P buyers may have last bought an M9 or M240, or might only buy P cycle versions, etc.  In that case, the changes for them might be substantial.

Jeff

Count me as one. On the digital side, my M's:

M8

M9

Monochrom

M240

M10

M10M

M11

Ive skipped all the P updates

 

BTW- every single one of these M's has had fw bugs at launch, some fixed, some not. Clearly none mattered enough to prevent me from upgrading to the next model only to experience them again. None prevented me from using or enjoying the camera. My iPhone has more bugs.

[Herr Barnack]

15 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Had I known about all the possible issues (and my camera got many of those and more), I would have still bought the M11. Despite all the reported issues, I can shoot with my "half-baked" M11 at least as efficiently as with my M10-R. 
It seems that Leica has completely revamped the software, as the UI does not bear many similarities with previous M cameras. Still, they should have fixed the bugs before shipping, and no, they should not have delayed the launch by another three months to test more :). 

Apparently some M11s have bugs/glitches.  The obvious solution is to -

1.) Return it and require the dealer to replace it with a new in box M11;

2.) Take the replacement M11 home and try it out.  if it too has bugs/glitches, repeat 1.) above as many times as is necessary.

The law of probability dictates that sooner or later, you will end up with a 100% functional M11 with no bugs/glitches. 

Yes, this would be a pain in the @$$ - but it would be less of a pain in the @$$ than having a $9000 USD camera that doesn't work right.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[digitalfx]

26 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

 

2.) Take the replacement M11 home and try it out.  if it too has bugs/glitches, repeat 1.) above as needed.

The law of probability dictates that sooner or later, you will end up with a 100% functional M11 with no bugs/glitches. 

 

NO PLEASE. We've become a return society...it must be perfect or I will return it. Nothing made by humans is perfect, we are all imperfect.

Every single digital M has had bugs...if you want a bug free camera, I hear the Pentak Spotmatic was pretty solid.

 

[SrMi]

21 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Apparently some M11s have bugs/glitches.  The obvious solution is to -

1.) Return it and require the dealer to replace it with a new in box M11;

2.) Take the replacement M11 home and try it out.  if it too has bugs/glitches, repeat 1.) above as many times as is necessary.

The law of probability dictates that sooner or later, you will end up with a 100% functional M11 with no bugs/glitches. 

Yes, this would be a pain in the @$$ - but it would be less of a pain in the @$$ than having a $9000 USD camera that doesn't work right.

With a good dealer, you can use your M11 until your replacement arrives. I have a good dealer 😄.

It is easy to test in the store if the camera has issues.

Edited January 23, 2022 by SrMi

[M Journey]

I think that if Leica offered people the option to purchase the m11 in the summer of 21 when the camera was still being beta tested, the waitlist for that would have been the longest in Leica's history.

I for one am happy to have purchased the m11 on day 1, despite any firmware bugs and the usual percentage of defective units.  I haven't seen anyone complain about getting a faulty unit and not being able to return it and get a replacement ASAP.  I have no doubt that any bugs that seem firmware based would be rectified in future firmware.  I would much rather take my chances and work with a buggy camera than have to wait another year for Leica to get it 100% perfect.

I bought a new laptop a few months ago that crashed within the first week.  I simply rebooted the laptop and carried on.  Didn't go on any forums, didn't call customer support, just rebooted and continued with my life.  

I still don't understand the disparity in the lack of hate for the m10-r for the huge increase in price over the m10/10-p with minimal upgrades (1 over the p, 3-4 over the base 10), and the m11, which gives you a long list of upgrades over the m10-r for the same price.

I hear people refer to the flagship M.  To me, there is no such thing.  Flagship is used to define the version of a product type from a company.  Nikon has a flagship, the Z9, that has the best features that the company can or will offer for the cycle of that camera.  a Z6 or Z7 series camera that comes out after the z9 or before the z9ii will not be better than the z9 and will not be more expensive.

I don't see Leica as having a flagship M.  The newest version of the M is their best (not including special editions as they are the same camera with a different skin).  The M10 came out, then the M10-p which is the new best M camera.  The m10-r came out and became the new best M camera.  The m11 wasn't designed to slot under the M R series of cameras.  It was designed to be the best M camera.  When the M11-P comes out, it will be the new best M camera.  Its basically just the m10, m10.1 (p), and the m10.2 (r).  Sort of like how Apple makes the iphone 10, then 1 year later has the iphone 10s before they go to the iphone 11.

Since M camera updates is basically one line that only goes one way (lateral or up, the price is also follows suit.  The m11-p will be the same price or more expensive than the m11.  Any version of the m11 that comes out after m11-p.  

Leica may go the SL route, and separate the M cameras into distinct tiers to better meet a photography style/genre or different price points to match the different levels of enthusiast spending.  From what I can tell, Leica hasn't done that in the past with the M series.  And really, the only series I think Leica has done that with is the SL, and doing it once doesn't mean they will continue to do that. 

Long story short, it's great that the M11 was launched when it did.  Those who don't want to deal with the bugs can wait for the P version, which will come with more refined firmware along with the 1-3 new features/tweaks.

Buying a m11 is like buying an Aston Martin.  A Honda is much more reliable, more feature rich, is more cutting edge in automotive and computer technology, and much cheaper, but the Aston will be more lusted after, will be on more bucket lists, will be the more memorable and enjoyable experience.

 

[tom0511]

Nice idea with the rebate. However - those who can afford update of Leica M (like M10-p/M10r....) in between full product cycle are typically not the people who "need" the rebate.

 

[UliWer]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

but a real upgrade.

Would it not better be a downgrade?

When I consider all pros and cons for and against using a Leica M it's simplicity which keeps me on board - until now.

I never had an -2 or -P models since the M8. Now I use an M10 Monochrome besides the standard M10. Yes, the silent shutter of the M10 Monochrome is impressive - but the standard M10 sound does not bother me. Recently I was reminded by accident that the M10 Monochrom has a touch screen. I had forgotten it. Same with the "spirit level". The last firmware update for the M10 Monochrome included "perspective control". I looked at it when it was new and found it interesting - but never used it since. When I saw the thread in this forum about camera's freezing when using the EVF with the M10 R or Monochrom I thought: "Funny, I never had any issues". When I tried it just a few days ago, I found out for the first time that the EVF doesn't work properly with the Monochrom - after two years. I didn't use it once. 

Now I read about so many new functions in the M11. Would I use "digital zoom", different file sizes, connection to the "Fotos App"? I am rather sure I would not. I know that I could use different sorts of metering with my two M10 versions already, if I used LiveView. I don't bother. The standard metering works for me. But I am still sceptical that a shutter always going "open-close-open-close-open" is to preferred to one doing the simple "close-open-close". It's not the sound which bothers me. It's the lack of simplicity. 

Then I read a long thread about "A running tally of M11 complaints so far". And there is one remark in it which sums it all up for me: 

8 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I'm sure that @elmarswould agree with me that there were many situations in the testing phase where it looked like it might be something wrong with the camera . . . . but it never was! There are so many different ways of shooting, and there are so many different ways of setting up the camera as well

My impression is there are too many different ways of setting up the camera. It seems to have lost it's simplicity. A "real" upgrade would downgrade it. 

[analog-digital]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

When mapping out your Leica strategy, it's instructive to look back of the upgrades so far.

Given the half-bakedness of M11, the M11-P must address all of the complaints and be not a cosmetic, but a real upgrade.

Not quite true. With each upgrade, the photos get a lot better.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[M Journey]

4 minutes ago, Artin said:

You know where the absolute sham in the whole cycle was ?  The M10R. Which I must say was a brilliant marketing ploy.  They took the base M10 add a new sensor with a hearty premium and a year later bring the M11’s and price them at that huge premium. so the incremental price hike between the base M10 and base M11. 2500 dollar US.  Yup they duped us we took it in hook line and sinker 

Business and Marketing people know how to manipulate human psychology.  People are willing to pay more for what they perceive as a premium add-on or upgrade, but are not willing to pay more for what they perceive should be part of the basic package.  It's like buying an apple computer.  The base computer can be 2k, but with premium add-ons can be 8k out the door.  I only recent got interested in Leica, and so don't know what the price difference was between the m10 and m10-r was at launch.  Today the difference is 1k.  I think that 1k for the better sensor over the base m10 is worth it.

The m11 price is getting flak because it doesn't have a cheaper option, all the upgrades are baked in.  I wonder if the m11 was a new m10 variant, how much people would be willing to pay over the price of the m10-r for the upgrades.

I do think that there is room for Leica to offer a cheaper variant.  Just do a reverse of the m10-r and downgrade the sensor and sensor related features accordingly.  Sell a 6k and 9k version of each M iteration.  Or maybe Leica just feels like their last generation of M bodies are the cheaper variant.  Maybe if they discount the m10 to 6k and the m10-r to 7k, that would make their user base much happier.  A lot of people look forward to a new release just so that they can buy a used version of the outgoing body at a lower price.  Imagine how happy they would be to be able to get a new version of the outgoing body at a great deal.

I think that once Leica goes over 10k for an m body, that will price out a lot of people like me.  Psychologically, there is no difference to me going from $7995 to $8995.  I can even tolerate toing to $9995.  At $10,005, Leica will lose me, at least at my current financial situation (the lotto gods have yet to bless me).

I agree with @Artin, they got us, and there's no going back.  All we can do is increase the time between our own upgrade cycles, or pick up a few side hustles...

 

 

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, digitalfx said:

NO PLEASE. We've become a return society...it must be perfect or I will return it. Nothing made by humans is perfect, we are all imperfect.

Every single digital M has had bugs...if you want a bug free camera, I hear the Pentak Spotmatic was pretty solid.

 

My black paint MP 0.72 was flawless

My M4-P was flawless

My M240 was flawless

My M-P 240 Safari set was flawless

My Q2 was flawless

My M10 Mono was flawless

Every new Leica M lens I have ever purchased has been flawless - why should an M11 be any different?

My $9000 USD payment will be flawless so my M11 will need to be flawless or I will return it.

We're not talking about a $200 push mower here. 

As for functioning correctly and as advertised, it's not unreasonable to expect your M11 to do so.  That's why Leica cameras and lenses come with a three year warranty.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Herr Barnack