Will you buy M10R BP instead of buying M11?

[Masukami]

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3 hours ago, Winedemonium said:

I bought the M10-R BP like fabior, after knowing most of the specs for the M11. It's a beautiful camera. 

Some will prefer the M10-R BP, some will prefer the M11. Whatever makes you happy taking pictures. 

I did the same. It’s more than good enough for my requirements and I consider it the ‘last of the classic rangefinders’ (not that there is anything wrong with the M11, imho a superb camera from what I’ve read and seen). 
 

As for the M10-R BP, I intend to keep it, use it and enjoy myself in doing so.  The black paint is an added bonus - that lovely brassing to look forward to in about 10 years time. 
 

Each to their own, just as long as it doesn’t sit on a shelf, gathering dust!

[M9reno]

2 hours ago, Masukami said:

I did the same. It’s more than good enough for my requirements and I consider it the ‘last of the classic rangefinders’ (not that there is anything wrong with the M11, imho a superb camera from what I’ve read and seen). 
 

As for the M10-R BP, I intend to keep it, use it and enjoy myself in doing so.  The black paint is an added bonus - that lovely brassing to look forward to in about 10 years time. 
 

Each to their own, just as long as it doesn’t sit on a shelf, gathering dust!

… and I should confess I did the same, bought an M10R-BP (briefly in stock last weekend at Red Dot, London), two days after the M11 launch, for exactly the same reasons as above. It is an excellent complement to an M10D, my other M10.

[52K]

On 1/22/2022 at 4:52 AM, GFONG said:

I understand the M11 has the following improvement:

• 60.3MP sensor (3 Resolutions) - For me, 40MP is enough. (If I want more, I will get the Fuji GXF)
• New Battery (64% more) - Regardless how big is the battery, I still carry a spare battery. 
• 64GB Internal Memory - Good to have. But I always carry a few SD cards
• 3 Customizable Buttons - If using the default settings, it is similar to M10R.
• Full time Sensor Metering - This is the only advantage benefit me. If M10R without highlight blow out problem, then it does not have much benefit.
• Electronic Shutter (1/16000) - Rolling shutter (Even using my Sony system, I still prefer to use mechanical. Also not a lot of situation using 1/16000.
• 2.33M dot LCD - I seldom use LCD.
• 110g Lighter (Black Model) - I bought the Leica is because I like the weight. 110g is not much different.
• USB-C Port - I don’t use USB to charge or transfer photo. I use charger and take out SD card to transfer.
• Base ISO 64 - Not a lot different compared ISO100. Of course it is a lot better than my M10P
• Better Color Science - Subjective (No comment)
• Crop mode - As I am using rangefinder most of the time, crop mode is not applicable. Also I can crop in post processing.
• Dynamic Range (14-15 Steps) - Seldom over and under more than 3 stops.
• SD Card location - No a concern in M10 or M11
• Base plate removed - I think this is the signature of M camera. Although it is redundant, it is good to preserve it.

The above opinion is based on my usage of my M10P and Sony A7R4 system. I am not saying which one is good. It depends on individual. Now my question is I have an opportunity to get a brand new M10R BP and I want to get a higher MP camera,  should I 

• buy M10R BP;
• Wait for M11; or
• use my existing M10R

Best regards,

Galen

Looks to me like you’ve already talked yourself out of the M11 as you don’t need any of new features. For me personally and it’s all subjective, I traded in my M10-R for an M11. The sum of improvements to me made it worthwhile. 40MP was plenty and I didn’t jump because now there is 60MP. Battery life on all my M10 models left me wanting frankly, the M11 feels much more like my previous M240 and yes I also carry a spare. Wireless transfer has been massively speeded up, even with 60MP raw files is hugely quicker than the previous cameras and even the newer SL models. This is of value to me, I can review, edit photos without taking my camera out of its bag when sitting in a coffee shop, I use that feature a lot. I hate carting loads of kit about with me and USB Charging is great too as I always have USB-C charger with me. I don’t need ND filters to shoot f1.4 in bright conditions because electronic shutter kicks in to 1/16000, I like that too. The visoflex 2, whilst not as amazing as my SL2-S EVF, is pretty damn good, even though my first one was faulty. This is a big step up, for much of my shooting where I would otherwise use the SL2S. 
 

Having bought an SL2S to bridge many of the things I needed in the M (still shooting it with M lenses), I’m delighted that they’ve incorporate some of the best features of the SL into the M, and also made the user interface very similar. I also like the programmable buttons like I have on the SL. 

 

The jury is out for me whether the M11 is the best M I’ve ever owned, but it has made a good impression in many new areas for me. I really loved my M10-R, but I got a decent trade-in towards the M11 so I’m really hoping it was worth while. Early images are great, no better than the M10-R IMHO yet, but the convenience of some of these features and the tie in with the `SL interface to me seems a step in the right direction. 
 

I’ve been a dedicated Leica M rangefinder shooter for a long time now. I love the simple rangefinder experience and shoot both film and digital. Sometimes the EVF is really useful for me, and the new tech advances I’ve mentioned above improve my personal experience on the digital M hugely for me. Each to their own, I’m sure you’ll enjoy the M10-R also, it’s a brilliant camera and for me, was the best M yet. Let’s see how I get on with the new one, it’s only been a few days.

Everybody knows silver M’s are best :-)… now there is a discussion point. Did Leica cheap out with the black aluminium M11? Did they try to hide it with marketing the 100g lighter statement? They certainly did cheap out with the packaging… yes only a box but now like the SL boxes cardboard and foam. Even the charger feels cheap, thankfully the M11 itself is reassuringly Stella Artois,  it only if you buy a silver one. 🙂
 

enjoy whichever camera you choose.

 

[jakontil]

I think anyone who got the M10 R prior to M11 release or after, know very well what we really looking for… 😂😂😂

A good backup to my film BP MP, i couldnt ask for more… unless there’s a brass BP M11 i might reconsider if i have the fund to add

[grahamc]

7 hours ago, M9reno said:

… and I should confess I did the same, bought an M10R-BP (briefly in stock last weekend at Red Dot, London), two days after the M11 launch, for exactly the same reasons as above. It is an excellent complement to an M10D, my other M10.

Congratulations !  I’m thinking of doing exactly the same and fighting off a nasty case of GAS as we speak.
 

Why did you feel the need for an accompanying your D ?  Are there times when you require the screen ? I do from time to time 
 

 

[M9reno]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

Congratulations !  I’m thinking of doing exactly the same and fighting off a nasty case of GAS as we speak.
 

Why did you feel the need for an accompanying your D ?  Are there times when you require the screen ? I do from time to time 
 

 

The 24 and 41 MP variants of the M10 are sufficiently different to justify continuing to use both, over and above the obvious difference between D and R. The M10R is my first new screened M since 2014 (M240), and waiting until the M11 launch gave the opportunity to weigh the pros and cons of these two high-MP cameras. Being able to stay in the M10 generation with a pair of bodies sharing batteries, chargers etc. played a small but not insignificant part in the decision. And the special design and the black paint of the R are a nice bonus. For a couple of days, I searched and could not find one - then Red Dot unexpectedly put one on their site last weekend, which I snapped up. 🙂

[grahamc]

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5 minutes ago, M9reno said:

The 24 and 41 MP variants of the M10 are sufficiently different to justify continuing to use both, over and above the obvious difference between D and R. The M10R is my first new screened M since 2014 (M240), and waiting until the M11 launch gave the opportunity to weigh the pros and cons of these two high-MP cameras. Being able to stay in the M10 generation with a pair of bodies sharing batteries, chargers etc. played a small but not insignificant part in the decision. And the special design and the black paint of the R are a nice bonus. For a couple of days, I searched and could not find one - then Red Dot unexpectedly put one on their site last weekend, which I snapped up. 🙂

Great. I agree on all of these points and enjoy the camera. I feel I’m putting off the inevitable and will need to get one  

I also like base plates 

[stefanusj]

On 1/22/2022 at 11:52 AM, GFONG said:

I understand the M11 has the following improvement:

• 60.3MP sensor (3 Resolutions) - For me, 40MP is enough. (If I want more, I will get the Fuji GXF)
• New Battery (64% more) - Regardless how big is the battery, I still carry a spare battery. 
• 64GB Internal Memory - Good to have. But I always carry a few SD cards
• 3 Customizable Buttons - If using the default settings, it is similar to M10R.
• Full time Sensor Metering - This is the only advantage benefit me. If M10R without highlight blow out problem, then it does not have much benefit.
• Electronic Shutter (1/16000) - Rolling shutter (Even using my Sony system, I still prefer to use mechanical. Also not a lot of situation using 1/16000.
• 2.33M dot LCD - I seldom use LCD.
• 110g Lighter (Black Model) - I bought the Leica is because I like the weight. 110g is not much different.
• USB-C Port - I don’t use USB to charge or transfer photo. I use charger and take out SD card to transfer.
• Base ISO 64 - Not a lot different compared ISO100. Of course it is a lot better than my M10P
• Better Color Science - Subjective (No comment)
• Crop mode - As I am using rangefinder most of the time, crop mode is not applicable. Also I can crop in post processing.
• Dynamic Range (14-15 Steps) - Seldom over and under more than 3 stops.
• SD Card location - No a concern in M10 or M11
• Base plate removed - I think this is the signature of M camera. Although it is redundant, it is good to preserve it.

The above opinion is based on my usage of my M10P and Sony A7R4 system. I am not saying which one is good. It depends on individual. Now my question is I have an opportunity to get a brand new M10R BP and I want to get a higher MP camera,  should I 

• buy M10R BP;
• Wait for M11; or
• use my existing M10R

Best regards,

Galen

The answer is dependant on the forum sections (M10 vs M11). LOL. 

If i'm in your positions, i just stick with my M10R, or maybe try to trade it with the Black Paint versions. it's just because the value of the camera will be increased in the future (until M11 "real" Black paint versions released).

[grahamc]

Tomorrow, I'm quite likely to do exactly what the thread title says.    

[GFONG]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

Tomorrow, I'm quite likely to do exactly what the thread title says.    

Congrats 👍🏼

[Sjz]

28 minutes ago, GFONG said:

Congrats 👍🏼

I have a M10M and the ‘R’ BP would be a very appealing partner for it.  I have the SL2 and every time I go to commit to a ‘R’ I keep asking myself about getting my M ‘fix’ from the Mono and attaching my M lens’s on the SL2 which I quite enjoy as a way of getting colour.    The damned ‘R’ thread has been ridiculously good recently.

[grahamc]

8 minutes ago, Sjz said:

I have a M10M and the ‘R’ BP would be a very appealing partner for it.  I have the SL2 and every time I go to commit to a ‘R’ I keep asking myself about getting my M ‘fix’ from the Mono and attaching my M lens’s on the SL2 which I quite enjoy as a way of getting colour.    The damned ‘R’ thread has been ridiculously good recently.

I even adapted my M lenses to my "original M11" (aka the Sony A7Riv) last weekend as a final attempt at curing the GAS.  But it just won't do, I have to want to get the 10R 

[Sjz]

47 minutes ago, grahamc said:

I even adapted my M lenses to my "original M11" (aka the Sony A7Riv) last weekend as a final attempt at curing the GAS.  But it just won't do, I have to want to get the 10R 

I think ‘low light colour photography - city at night’ and less ‘in your face colour street photography, during the day’ is my GAS justification.  Two very solid reasons 😉 

[grahamc]

12 minutes ago, Sjz said:

I think ‘low light colour photography - city at night’ and less ‘in your face colour street photography, during the day’ is my GAS justification.  Two very solid reasons 😉 

sounds convincing to me!

[MikeMyers]

Not sure why I even read this thread, as "all" I've got is a standard M10.  For me, all these discussions come down to "form follows function", and while the newer M10R-BP would give me the possibilities of larger images, it would create other problems in my workflow.  I thought 16megs was all I needed, and 24 is already over that.  As to the BP, I'll agree, it's gorgeous, but I prefer the M10 just the way it came, with a "flat" black finish.  I don't like cameras that generate attention, one reason why the logo is covered with a piece of black electrical tape.

"Need" vs. "want".....   I guess I'd gladly accept the additional features of the R, and ditto for the 11, but it would mostly be wasted on me, for the reasons others have posted.  

I got my M10 from B&H Photo as an "open box sale", so it was new, but had been used as a demonstrator.  I knew I'd never get another chance to buy a new M at the price they gave me, which was before Covid turned my world upside down.  

 

Nobody listens to me, but my advice to Leica would have been to keep the previous M10 cameras available, and let buyers select what best fits their needs.  For the same price, I'd probably buy "the best" and ignore the features that I had no interest in, but to save $2,000 or so and get a brand new M, that's what I would buy tomorrow, if given the choice.  It's like with cars, where you can double the price of the car with add-ons.  If I was rich, I might buy one of each - which as a photographer, would be quite silly.  

Also - the reason I'm shooting with my M10 instead of my D750 is because I enjoy using Leica M cameras.  By the time all those add-ons come into the picture, and I think about Live View, my reaction is I might as well be using my Nikon which has a far better "live view".  The Leica is far better than the Nikon DSLR when used the way Robert Capa did things, and if I want to carefully compose and set up a still shot, the Nikon is far superior.  I like the rangefinder, the weight of an M, the way it feels in my hands, and the "connection" between my brain and what the camera does.....    but this is for the type of photography 35mm cameras were originally designed.  With all those options, especially with the M11, my gut feeling is I might as well use my D750 (or buy a D850 as so many of my friends insist I do...).  As for lenses, with wide angle lenses, and normal, I like all these cameras, but when I put my 135 TeleElmar on my M10, I'm thinking to myself - why?

(I'm "cheating" in a way, as I so much prefer the grip of my Nikon in my hand, that I ordered the Leica hand grip.  I'm way too stubborn, and I try to do things with my M10 even when I "know" it would be easier with the Nikon.)

[T25UFO]

I sold my SL2 and 75mm Summicron (only SL lens) to fund the M10R BP.  That was a couple of weeks before the M11 announcement, but we all knew what was coming.  BP is without doubt the best looking digital M to date; yes, I know it's cosmetic and the results are no different from a regular M10R, but it really is a lovely thing to hold and use.

If (or when) the M11 BP arrives then I might be tempted, but that's likely to be another roll out model at the end of the M11 line and then we'll all be asking: do I buy the M11 BP or wait for the M12 🙂

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

Will you buy M10R BP instead of buying M11?

No, the M11 is the camera I want. 

The upgrades it has compared to the M10R BP are just too compelling to say no to.  YMMV.

Disclaimer:  But if it rains diamonds at my house, I'll get one of each.  😊

[Mikep996]

I still haven't taken a better photo with a 40+ MP Leica than I took with my 6MP Nikon.  

 

Weird...I thought my photographs would show a remarkable improvement when I went from 3 to 6MP, again when I went from 6 to 12...then to 16, then 24, and now 40.  But no, nothing! I'm sure there's a sweet spot somewhere.    Maybe it's 60!   

Hmm..you know, it's funny... I seem to recall that my film photos didn't improve either when I kept buying "better" cameras.  My Leica M6 photos looked just like my Yashica Electro 35 photos.

I just don't get it!🤔

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Mikep996

[MikeMyers]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

But if it rains diamonds at my house, I'll get one of each. 

When that storm blows over your home, send it my way.  Then I too can buy one of each.  But I'd probably put all the new ones in my camera drawer, and continue using my M10.  If it wasn't for infrared, I doubt I'be doing much with my M8.2 in the future.

A shiny (gaudy?) black finish is lovely to drool over, but when I'm out in a crowd, I prefer a camera nobody pays much attention to.

 

You know, if I was more of a Leica fan, I wouldn't be saying these things.  That's why I bought black cameras before they became fashionable, as regular people didn't notice them.  That's as true today as a lifetime ago.  By comparison, with the -R, my old M10 looks like it's from the 1980's or so, and most people still think it's an old film camera when they see it.  That's fine by me.   My reasons for liking, and preferring, Leica cameras go way back, because they were the best for applications like news photography.  This makes for interesting reading, but I remember all the regular photographers who preferred the very rugged Leica cameras...   Leica M3D-2    I remember how "simple" my M3 and my M2 were/are.  Photographers concentrated on the picture they were taking, not the camera.  I'm in no way in the same category as they were, but it has always stuck with me as my "ultimate goal".

Of course, nowadays, I'm totally spoiled by "digital".  The camera is essentially the same, and once the image is processed, again things are mostly the same, but I no longer have a darkroom and all the gear I grew up with.....

 

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[MikeMyers]

18 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

I thought my photographs would show a remarkable improvement when I went from 3 to 6MP, again when I went from 6 to 12...then to 16, then 24, and now 40.  But no, nothing! I'm sure there's a sweet spot somewhere.

I no longer think upgrading cameras makes much of a difference, as long as the "heart" of the camera stays the same.  It's a struggle, but I can still do just fine with my M8.2, as long as I stay within the limitations.  Leica has already reached the "top", and all the newer "upgrades" seem like adding more icing to the cake.  The cake is already perfect.