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Will you buy M10R BP instead of buying M11?


GFONG

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I understand the M11 has the following improvement:

  • 60.3MP sensor (3 Resolutions) - For me, 40MP is enough. (If I want more, I will get the Fuji GXF)
  • New Battery (64% more) - Regardless how big is the battery, I still carry a spare battery. 
  • 64GB Internal Memory - Good to have. But I always carry a few SD cards
  • 3 Customizable Buttons - If using the default settings, it is similar to M10R.
  • Full time Sensor Metering - This is the only advantage benefit me. If M10R without highlight blow out problem, then it does not have much benefit.
  • Electronic Shutter (1/16000) - Rolling shutter (Even using my Sony system, I still prefer to use mechanical. Also not a lot of situation using 1/16000.
  • 2.33M dot LCD - I seldom use LCD.
  • 110g Lighter (Black Model) - I bought the Leica is because I like the weight. 110g is not much different.
  • USB-C Port - I don’t use USB to charge or transfer photo. I use charger and take out SD card to transfer.
  • Base ISO 64 - Not a lot different compared ISO100. Of course it is a lot better than my M10P
  • Better Color Science - Subjective (No comment)
  • Crop mode - As I am using rangefinder most of the time, crop mode is not applicable. Also I can crop in post processing.
  • Dynamic Range (14-15 Steps) - Seldom over and under more than 3 stops.
  • SD Card location - No a concern in M10 or M11
  • Base plate removed - I think this is the signature of M camera. Although it is redundant, it is good to preserve it.

The above opinion is based on my usage of my M10P and Sony A7R4 system. I am not saying which one is good. It depends on individual. Now my question is I have an opportunity to get a brand new M10R BP and I want to get a higher MP camera,  should I 

  • buy M10R BP;
  • Wait for M11; or
  • use my existing M10R

Best regards,

Galen

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Depends on where you ask the Q, answer might vary

however, i bid the last M10R BP available to me as soon as the M11 leak arise, because

Mostly i shoot films, i had my m10p safari as backup most of the time, if i ever buy a M11, probably wait for another safari or any other non ordinary body, i prefer distinctive physical looks over IQ, since i reckon, nowadays, they all look similar based on my shooting situation

The reason why i bought m10r bcoz it was black paint 🤫

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Galen,   It depends.  There are several threads on the forum asking similar type questions.  A lot of well meaning M photographers will offer advice to include me, but it get down to several things;  a.  Do you Need or Want an M11?  (there is a difference between the two),  b. You wrote above you have a M10-P (Excellent camera) and a M10-R  What will the M11 do for you that either camera can't do now for you?  c.  Your Wallet,  How much do you want to spend on something(s) that you already own?   d. What is a M10-R BP going to for you other than get a tarnished finish over time?   Based on my own experience now the M11 and talking to the Leica Store owner....I would suggest you hold off on the M11 until the software and color profiles get refined.  I suggest holding off 6 months before taking the plunge.  It is like buying a new model car the first year, chances are it will have bugs and will take time to resolve.  In the meantime, I suggest you go create masterpiece photographs with the cameras at hand.  r/ Mark

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Not that it has any impact on IQ but that Black Paint M10-R is just g-o-r-g-e-o-u-s. I am keeping mine and not changing to M11.

 

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32 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Not that it has any impact on IQ but that Black Paint M10-R is just g-o-r-g-e-o-u-s. I am keeping mine and not changing to M11.

 

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Seriously Al, that red dot reminds me of the M6 millenium… so sexy and unpreditable…

i thought u played along side m11 too?

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For me the 60 MPix are too much too (most time anyway). But you can use the M-DNG. But not enough with that: When you are out with light weight and you have just 28mm  then you can crop: And the great thing with this: when cropping your M11 immediately switches to L-DNG which gives you a >30 MPix image 35mm angle of view. When you leave the crop function you are back with M-DNG. Very versatile functiinality.

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3 hours ago, GFONG said:

I understand the M11 has the following improvement:

  • 60.3MP sensor (3 Resolutions) - For me, 40MP is enough. (If I want more, I will get the Fuji GXF)
  • New Battery (64% more) - Regardless how big is the battery, I still carry a spare battery. 
  • 64GB Internal Memory - Good to have. But I always carry a few SD cards
  • 3 Customizable Buttons - If using the default settings, it is similar to M10R.
  • Full time Sensor Metering - This is the only advantage benefit me. If M10R without highlight blow out problem, then it does not have much benefit.
  • Electronic Shutter (1/16000) - Rolling shutter (Even using my Sony system, I still prefer to use mechanical. Also not a lot of situation using 1/16000.
  • 2.33M dot LCD - I seldom use LCD.
  • 110g Lighter (Black Model) - I bought the Leica is because I like the weight. 110g is not much different.
  • USB-C Port - I don’t use USB to charge or transfer photo. I use charger and take out SD card to transfer.
  • Base ISO 64 - Not a lot different compared ISO100. Of course it is a lot better than my M10P
  • Better Color Science - Subjective (No comment)
  • Crop mode - As I am using rangefinder most of the time, crop mode is not applicable. Also I can crop in post processing.
  • Dynamic Range (14-15 Steps) - Seldom over and under more than 3 stops.
  • SD Card location - No a concern in M10 or M11
  • Base plate removed - I think this is the signature of M camera. Although it is redundant, it is good to preserve it.

The above opinion is based on my usage of my M10P and Sony A7R4 system. I am not saying which one is good. It depends on individual. Now my question is I have an opportunity to get a brand new M10R BP and I want to get a higher MP camera,  should I 

  • buy M10R BP;
  • Wait for M11; or
  • use my existing M10R

Best regards,

Galen

Personally, the M10R-BP would be my preference, for a variety of reasons. I guess in your case you already have an M10R, so the “upgrade” is cosmetic.

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When the M11 wasn’t announced in November 2021 I bought one of the last M10R BP that my Leica (Mayfair London) store had. When it arrived I LOVED the look and feel of it. It’s just stunning aesthetically. And I immediately loved the photos coming off it, I think the 40mp sensor has a really lovely look over the m10’s 24mp sensor.

I got an M11 black straight away without seeing in the shop first and when the box arrived (I’d already read Jono’s review) I was surprised by the lighter feel and my knee-jerk reaction was “This feels like a toy!” But now using it for a week or so I am used to it. still not crazy about the aesthetics and will probably switch to the -P edition but you can’t have everything. 

As for the 10R BP? It IS still beautiful and I really really do love it and it delivers all I really need –the 11 has useful features but I don’t need them, I just like them– but I am selling the 10R BP as I don’t really have call for a stack of cameras on the shelf. I already miss it since I have re-boxed it.

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If you didn't already have an M10R I think the black paint would be the way to go over the M11. Such a beautiful camera and the image quality is top-notch. I doubt you'd lose too much on the used market with a black paint version - even though it's an older model, it's much more highly sought after. In 12 months time it *might* even sell for a higher amount second hand than a used M11.

If you're coming from an M10R already though, as tempting as the black paint is, the M11 would be the smarter buy. That was my thought process (owner of an M10R black chrome and an M11 on the way). 

 

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If I hadn’t an M10R already and had waited for M11, I doubt whether I would have chosen for the M11. I would have shot a series with both camera’s and probably had discovered some subtle differences in color in favor of the M10R. The whole idea of BP is too much a fetish for me to be important for a decision. I have another fetish, the shutter sound, that would pull me over the bridge for the one or the other I think, if results in IQ would be equal.

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I am generally a fan of the M11 but I bought an M10-R (silver not black paint) instead once I heard enough leaks about the M11 to get an idea of whether I’d want one. 
 

It came down to these few reasons:

1. I don’t want to be an early adopter of a $9k USD camera, there are bound to be problems in the beginning that will be sorted out later in its production run, as well as in the M11-P once that comes out. There are already some reports of people having some issues with the function buttons on the M11, and the camera locking up.

2. I’ve been wanting a Leica M camera for 15 years, and I didn’t want to wait any longer for the M11-P.

3. The M10-R ticks all the boxes for me, almost everything better about the M11 is just extra bloat that makes it more like another typical mirrorless camera.

4. I have a Nikon Z6, and I am not a fan of the sound it makes when it has to take a picture due to it having to close the shutter before opening and closing for the exposure, then opening again, since the sensor needs to be open for live view all the time. Since the M11 meters off the sensor, it behaves exactly this way as well. From what I have heard, it does sound a lot better than the Z6, but I prefer the succinct click of the M10-R. My Z6 also makes noises on start up, although that is different from the M11 because it’s the IBIS mechanism in the Z6 whereas in the M11 it is the shutter opening, I still find that annoying. I recognize this is not a big deal for probably most people, but these extra sounds are the biggest annoyance about mirrorless cameras to me.

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52 minutes ago, ElChupacabra said:

What bloat? 

Many of the points in the original post. Bloat meaning things that I don't need (and in some cases don't want), not necessarily adding physical weight or size:

  • 60.3MP sensor (3 Resolutions)
  • 64GB Internal Memory
  • 3 Customizable Buttons
  • Full time Sensor Metering
  • Electronic Shutter (1/16000)
  • 2.33M dot LCD
  • USB-C Port
  • Crop mode

None of these things matter to me.

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"In 12 months time it *might* even sell for a higher amount second hand than a used M11."

For the first time in my rather lengthy camera buying/owning life, the 10R BP is the first camera that I think MIGHT do as suggested - sell for more used than a current model 'used' camera.  If so, it would be the first consumer item I've ever owned that increased in value - at least during the time I owned it.   There are plenty of things I've owned that now sell for insane prices but when I owned/sold them they were just "used items." ;)

 

 

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6 hours ago, jakontil said:

Seriously Al, that red dot reminds me of the M6 millenium… so sexy and unpreditable…

i thought u played along side m11 too?

Don't get me wrong, I would have it alongside the M10-R BP but only in matching BP 😎. Not replacing though.

Edited by Al Brown
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9 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Galen,   It depends.  There are several threads on the forum asking similar type questions.  A lot of well meaning M photographers will offer advice to include me, but it get down to several things;  a.  Do you Need or Want an M11?  (there is a difference between the two),  b. You wrote above you have a M10-P (Excellent camera) and a M10-R  What will the M11 do for you that either camera can't do now for you?  c.  Your Wallet,  How much do you want to spend on something(s) that you already own?   d. What is a M10-R BP going to for you other than get a tarnished finish over time?   Based on my own experience now the M11 and talking to the Leica Store owner....I would suggest you hold off on the M11 until the software and color profiles get refined.  I suggest holding off 6 months before taking the plunge.  It is like buying a new model car the first year, chances are it will have bugs and will take time to resolve.  In the meantime, I suggest you go create masterpiece photographs with the cameras at hand.  r/ Mark

Thanks for your advice.

a. Want > Need

b. For M11, I prefer the brass top black paint.

c. I will trade my M10P and get the black paint.

d. I bought the Leica is because I like the user experience and history of Leica. That’s why I am thinks of M10R black paint instead of M11. 

Actually holding of for 6 months is a very good advice. My worry is at that time the M10R BP may not be available.

Best regards,

Galen

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7 hours ago, M9reno said:

Personally, the M10R-BP would be my preference, for a variety of reasons. I guess in your case you already have an M10R, so the “upgrade” is cosmetic.

I own the M10P. Maybe I compare the M11 to M10R make you guy think I am owning the M10R. So sorry about that. IMHO, the  M10R has two improvement I want, i.e. higher MP (40MP is just nice) and the highlight blow out. 

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11 minutes ago, GFONG said:

I own the M10P. Maybe I compare the M11 to M10R make you guy think I am owning the M10R. So sorry about that. IMHO, the  M10R has two improvement I want, i.e. higher MP (40MP is just nice) and the highlight blow out. 

Then, if I were you, I would go for M10R, if those two improvements over the M10-P are the more important ones.  You can keep the M10-P as backup and keep old batteries, chargers etc.

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My first Leica was an M4P in 1984 and now I am one of the few who decided to buy the M10R BP two days before the presentation of the M11. It is truly beautiful, has the charm of the highest expression of the M10 family and is produced in a limited number. It produces images that for me are beautiful and with the due experience, which I do not have, of processing and post-production of the files I do not think the results can be better with the M11 for what are my goals. I'm enjoying it with no regrets.

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My black paint M10R is the end of the line for me. I'm about to head out and buy a 'used' M10 Monochrom - the owner said he bought it for a trip that didn't happen and then never actually unboxed it, so at the Starbucks will be the first time! 

Edited by charlesphoto99
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