M10R Owners: Is the M11 Worth the Upgrade?

[Jeff S]

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10 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Jeff is our spiritual ideal!:)

If that were true, I’d be out making pics or printing today. 

Jeff

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[setuporg]

3 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

If that were true, I’d be out making pics or printing today. 

Jeff

We like our ideals hanging out with us.:)

Edited January 17, 2022 by setuporg

[tom0511]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb onasj:

The conundrum here is that no one NEEDS a Leica, or any camera as capable as the M10-R or the M11.  If your goal is to take beautiful photos, you can do so much, much less expensively with a wide variety of other cameras and lenses out there.  In fact you can get more capable cameras and (gasp!) more capable lenses from other manufacturers for less money.

The fact that you are already in Leica's world means you assign some value to factors that make Leica's special, whether that's their styling, the rangefinder "experience", their small size, the brand's reputation, etc. If you try to boil down the upgrade to a strictly economic or practical one, you'll may conclude that upgrading doesn't make sense because purchasing a Leica rarely makes sense using those metrics.  Yet here we are

I agree for a large part. But thats part of the ‚problem‘ to decide.

the M10r is a lovely simple camera, and the sensor, even if not ‚neutral’ has a very good highlight rendering, kind of special color, very goodnhighbiso. The camera has the optimized shutter (sound), its black chrome (or even classic paint), so it ticks many boxes.

The M11 has some very good improvements, like the exp metering, battery, resolution. On the other side its moving a step closer to a ‚computerized‘ camera.

For my part I dont miss the basplate, I welcome better exp metering and could accept the click when switching on the camera. Others dont even want a display.

Its a quite tricky homework for leica to improve the Leica M, without giving up its dna.

I think they did a good job. but I also feel to be kind of connected to my M10r.

Edited January 17, 2022 by tom0511

[opera207]

I keep my m10r black and got a silver m11.

1. The IQ is indeed improved, especially color science.

2. The lcd, battery, wifi , usb c is significantly improved, these improvements make m11 a modern camera, usable with smartphone and internet. while m10r is old style. 

3. However the shutter opening noise at wake up, the aluminum top of black m11, are downsides to me, so I am keeping my black m10r, yes style and look is very important for m cameras, otherwise I will use a sonica camera.

So here's the conclusion: if you don't care the aluminum top or you like silver color, if you don't mind the clunck sound on waking or opening, then the update is worth.

 

[Oswalt]

Your answers aren't going to be overly favourable to your question, as most of us that own the M11 are going to echo one another and exhibit some bias in one regard or another. 

My own findings suggest the M11 files do not hold up as well as the M10R in post. There is a considerable amount of luma and colour noise that appears that otherwise doesn't for the R; even at base iso 64. I dial back all noise corrections before processing and dial in what I need or want preferably with a much lighter hand than default settings. My results so far favour the R.

I'm also finding the files to be way too sharp for my liking, a bit like false detail that has had sharpening applied to it. It doesn't look very natural to my eyes, and it's definitely not what I prefer to see. 

These are some of my casual thoughts that I've collected so far. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Oswalt

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, Oswalt said:

Your answers aren't going to be overly favourable to your question, as most of us that own the M11 are going to echo one another and exhibit some bias in one regard or another. 

My own findings suggest the M11 files do not hold up as well as the M10R in post. There is a considerable amount of luma and colour noise that appears that otherwise doesn't for the R; even at base iso 64. I dial back all noise corrections before processing and dial in what I need or want preferably with a much lighter hand than default settings. My results so far favour the R.

I'm also finding the files to be way too sharp for my liking, a bit like false detail that has had sharpening applied to it. It doesn't look very natural to my eyes, and it's definitely not what I prefer to see. 

These are some of my casual thoughts so far. 

Is it fair to say that you are the only M11 owner on LUF that thinks there is a regression in image quality?

[Oswalt]

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5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Is it fair to say that you are the only M11 owner on LUF that thinks there is a regression in image quality?

Others will be able to answer that question better than I ever could. But yes, I'm likely to say that is the case. I prefer film and these newer sensors I guess just leave me feeling a bit cold. 

With each iteration of newer tech the more and more I become an old man yelling at the clouds, and perhaps feel a bit left out as the majority of people seem to enjoy these advancements. I'm left to navel gaze and wonder what could have been instead of what I am getting and likely to get in the future. 

[charlesphoto99]

45 minutes ago, opera207 said:

I keep my m10r black and got a silver m11.

1. The IQ is indeed improved, especially color science.

2. The lcd, battery, wifi , usb c is significantly improved, these improvements make m11 a modern camera, usable with smartphone and internet. while m10r is old style. 

3. However the shutter opening noise at wake up, the aluminum top of black m11, are downsides to me, so I am keeping my black m10r, yes style and look is very important for m cameras, otherwise I will use a sonica camera.

So here's the conclusion: if you don't care the aluminum top or you like silver color, if you don't mind the clunck sound on waking or opening, then the update is worth.

 

Here's the thing: so which camera do you use? I just can't understand why one would have a 10R and an 11 as one would sit unused 90% of the time (most likely the previous generation) at least in my case. I can only see the value upgrading from an R to an 11 if one truly needs something professionally that the R doesn't do, or one has no concerns financially, or just love owning five figure toys that sit in a closet. In a moment of weakness last year while my brand new M10-R BP was back to Leica for a rf calibration, I bought a CL. Haven't use once since the M came back. 

[John Smith]

2 hours ago, Oswalt said:

Your answers aren't going to be overly favourable to your question, as most of us that own the M11 are going to echo one another and exhibit some bias in one regard or another. 

My own findings suggest the M11 files do not hold up as well as the M10R in post. There is a considerable amount of luma and colour noise that appears that otherwise doesn't for the R; even at base iso 64. I dial back all noise corrections before processing and dial in what I need or want preferably with a much lighter hand than default settings. My results so far favour the R.

I'm also finding the files to be way too sharp for my liking, a bit like false detail that has had sharpening applied to it. It doesn't look very natural to my eyes, and it's definitely not what I prefer to see. 

These are some of my casual thoughts that I've collected so far. 

Biases? Yes, you’re probably right. But we take everything with a grain of salt here on the forum, don’t we?

Thanks for offering your own opinion. Sounds like, and I am no computer tech by any stretch of the imagination, that the manufacturers have dialed in some noise reduction as the MP race has continued unabated and that noise reduction carries some negative effects for post-processing.

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Is it fair to say that you are the only M11 owner on LUF that thinks there is a regression in image quality?

There may be two. I haven’t tried an M11 yet. But you have to wonder about a 20MP leap over an S3 architecture that has resulted in greater latitude, better color fidelity, and significantly less noise. Maybe Leica pulled it off. I certainly hope it did. 

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Here's the thing: so which camera do you use? I just can't understand why one would have a 10R and an 11 as one would sit unused 90% of the time (most likely the previous generation) at least in my case. I can only see the value upgrading from an R to an 11 if one truly needs something professionally that the R doesn't do, or one has no concerns financially, or just love owning five figure toys that sit in a closet. In a moment of weakness last year while my brand new M10-R BP was back to Leica for a rf calibration, I bought a CL. Haven't use once since the M came back. 

Everyone does his own thing. But personally I don’t want both an M10R and M11 in the stable. If I could critically focus a 75mm wide open 100% of the time with a FF I’d cut the whole kit down to one M and two lenses.

Edited January 17, 2022 by John Smith

[shirubadanieru]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

And most important, GAS is under control :).

As long as one can control GAS, guess what, the M8 is still a great camera and you can actually take great photos with it : p 
That being said, I cannot control GAS lol therefore I’m waiting for the M11 to be available in my leica dealer  

Regarding M10 VS M11, I was never a fan of the M10 platform, it just never felt right and I sold every M10-based camera (P, MM, etc) within a few months. I’m looking forward to trying the M11 and hope that I’ll enjoy this new M11 platform, because as we know, a lot of cameras will spawn from this baseline model in a year or two. 

[shirubadanieru]

2 hours ago, Oswalt said:

Others will be able to answer that question better than I ever could. But yes, I'm likely to say that is the case. I prefer film and these newer sensors I guess just leave me feeling a bit cold. 

With each iteration of newer tech the more and more I become an old man yelling at the clouds, and perhaps feel a bit left out as the majority of people seem to enjoy these advancements. I'm left to navel gaze and wonder what could have been instead of what I am getting and likely to get in the future. 

That’s totally fair, I hate the M240 and M10 rendering compared to the M9 so…that’s why I’m hopeful for the M11 but let’s see. 

[Reciprocity]

49 minutes ago, Artin said:

About 1 stop better ISO performance 

 

Ummm...what ISO? 100, 200, 400, 800, etc?

[Reciprocity]

20 minutes ago, Artin said:

ISO 12500 is about the same noise as 6400 on the M10R.  

Ah, so high ISO.

Being part of the exposure triangle, ISO is a unit of measure. Without specifying it was like saying your new ruler has improved inches, lol!

Sounds good either way, I look forward to getting one in a few years when the price comes down to where I want it.

[LeicaR10]

I have been putting the M11 through its paces for several days now and find the files to be excellent.  IMO, the color is the best of any digital M camera that I have owned to date and that includes them all.  Artin's post #34 above lays out the improvements of the M11, but there are well over 40 that Leica put into this camera and it shows.  The question for M owners thinking about upgrading to the M11, is; Do they need it or do they want it?  Only they can answer that question.  For me, it was well worth the upgrade for my landscape photography and need for a light weight kit for hiking in remote and challenging terrain.  As for the files, you might want to look at David Farkas's M11 Review with his photographs.  My files look very similar to his for color, contrast and rendering.  For me, the M11 is IMO the best of the best and as a tool, the camera helps me create photographs that will cause the viewer to; Stop, Look, Think and perhaps Feel something about that moment in time based on the CONTENT of my photographs.  Perhaps more photographers would find happiness concentrating on creating masterpiece photographs rather than complain about M11 that IMO is a  superb camera.  r/ Mark

PS.  Take a look at David's M11 Review photographs...this is what you should be getting and he is correct, Adobe will be tweaking its profiles soon as well.   Try:

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2022/01/leica-m11-review-the-ultimate-digital-m/

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I definitely don't need an M11. It actually serves no useful purpose for me. I not only have an M10R and M but also the quite gorgeous Hasselblad 907X and X1D. I have a GFX when I need resolution and the last thing I need is another (I already have 5) M camera in the house.

Hopefully my M11 will be ready for pick up mext week.

I really don't give a crap about the extra MP. The bigger battery and USBC charging are nice but not vital. I use Adndroid so Leica aren't interested in an app that works, for me. I liked the baseplate (I used the RRS plate when I used a tripod) and the location of the battery switch and tripod socket is a big downgrade for tripod users.

I'm upgrading for one main reason. I'm hankering for a Q2 with a 50mm. I use my Q2 in manual focus much of the time. The M11 will get me the closest to that plus I get my M experience as well. Likely the Q2 will get less use. Yes I can use the Visoflex on my M10R, and I do, but on the Q2 I don't need to magnify most of the time. With the M10 I always have to magnify. The improved resolution of the VF is worth the upgrade to me. I'll still use the RF most of the time but the EVF upgrade is why I'm upgrading.

There's also the interesting thing that older lenses may work better on the M11 due to the BSI sensor and new cover glass. If so I have a MATE that I love on me M10M but dissapoints on my M10R. That'll be a nice bonus. Plus long exposures and switchable LENR are now a thing on the M camera.

[tappan]

One reviewer mentioned that with the electronic you will need a tripod because the photos will warp with any movement much like the X1D does.
What does that mean? 

Mark 

[Reciprocity]

30 minutes ago, LeicaR10 said:

For me, it was well worth the upgrade for my landscape photography and need for a light weight kit for hiking in remote and challenging terrain.

For me, the M11 is IMO the best of the best and as a tool, the camera helps me create photographs that will cause the viewer to; Stop, Look, Think and perhaps Feel something about that moment in time based on the CONTENT of my photographs.  Perhaps more photographers would find happiness concentrating on creating masterpiece photographs rather than complain about M11 that IMO is a  superb camera.  

As far as landscapes go, I spend about 7-8 months a year working on landscape work for collectors, interior designers and advertising use and as much as I love the lightweight aspect of the M for what are truly remote and challenging conditions, I just find rangefinders in general far too limiting in terms of control of depth of field at optimum apertures, precise alignments in layering, graduated filter use and  primes being suboptimal for inclement weather because of their lack zoom. 

Don't get me wrong, I have occasionally used my M on a peak climb or ski outing but I produce far more impactful bill paying images with other systems when it comes to landscapes. 

Enjoy your new M11 and maybe post some of that work!

Edited January 18, 2022 by Reciprocity

[Reciprocity]

8 minutes ago, tappan said:

One reviewer mentioned that with the electronic you will need a tripod because the photos will warp with any movement much like the X1D does.
What does that mean? 

Mark 

It's called rolling shutter and it has to do with a slow readout of the sensor during exposure when using an electronic shutter. It has until recently been a major gremlin for shooting any kind of action, things can distort quite a bit at high shutter speeds. You can also get terrible banding under LED or CFL lights. My new Z9 has almost completely eliminated that due to a super fast sensor readout. For street photography, documentary, portraits, landscapes, etc I have not found it to really be a problem in cameras with slow readout times. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Reciprocity

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 minutes ago, tappan said:

One reviewer mentioned that with the electronic you will need a tripod because the photos will warp with any movement much like the X1D does.
What does that mean? 

Mark 

The electronic shutter scans each line and to scan the entire sensor takes 1/10th of a second. So if you're panning or have fast moving subjects you'll get a distorted scene.

The X1D scan rate is 1/3 second so three times slower. The M11 will still be usable for most relatively static subjects.

Gordon

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, Artin said:

I owned the M10R and decided to trade it in for the M11 

as far as IQ only I don’t think it is worth the upgrade.. M10R Image quality was super.. the M11 does have a advantage in resolution but in some instances I have seen quirky noise in the quarter tones have not put my finger on it yet happens rarely but it there. The colour is neutral and not as much contrast and saturated like the M10R. I think they need a few firmware upgrades before we see a truly settled IQ. I hope .  In most cases it pokes your eye on how sharp and detailed the images are. Excellent with vintage lenses gives them a new life.

 As for the rest of the Camera it is a huge upgrade 

base ISO 64 amazing 

I do see about 1.5 stops more dynamic range 

About 1 stop better ISO performance 

the metering is now very good in difficult lighting 

Battery life is excellent 

rear screen is now excellent resolution 

the menus are much better

battery release and convenience is really nice 

3 programable function buttons are super well done 

the Black paint is very light and actually very durable it does not scratch easy and looks great 

USB- charging thank you finally 

So am I happy with my choice  ?   100% there is so much on the plus side it is a game changer 

and to top it all off they did not change a thing on the experience of photography with an M camera 

100%. My only knock on the camera so far is that I've a feeling that the firmware was a bit rushed. Nothing concrete, other than occasionally I press a button and nothing happens or the AWB seems off at times.  IMO, many will eventually succumb to the allure of the extended DR, which definitely made a few shots possible today that would have been more difficult, possibly undoable, with the 10-R.  Leica has made a camera where one no longer has to constantly be on guard for shattered highlights. My experience with shadows is opposite to that of Oswalt's. So far I've been able to pull shadows with the 11 where the 10R would have fell apart. Color arriving out of the shadows is the best I've ever seen, ahead of the 10-R and SL2. And high ISO is easily one to one and half stops more useable than either of them.  It's also the best of the three when it comes to older glass, though possibly still not quite as compelling as with the 24Mpx cameras. 

IMO, the M11 moves things forward in meaningful ways. For some, it wont be enough or the price is simply too dear. But in my view it's already shaping up to being the best M Ive owned yet. YMMV.