Where Does the M11 Put the S?

[John McMaster]

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49 minutes ago, lx1713 said:

I'm investigating this. So my PhaseOne dealer suggested an IQ3 but think there might be a couple of problems with this. Electronic shutters and the attendant limited range for flash sync. So the S3 is still in the running because of the mechanical shutter and its OVF. I hope not to just use the S3 for macro work so its got to work for its keep.

I do not know what or how you shoot, but if using lenses with shutters can you not use a DB the same as you would have a film holder? 

john

[ynp]

2 hours ago, John McMaster said:

If it is for things that you use your P3 for, I would look for a used PhaseOne IQ4150 personally.  Larger sensor and no mirror box, so mates up to the rear standard better...

john

Yes. The bigger the merrier. A reliable live view through the C1 and ability to shoot Copal shutters with the PC cord. For the majority of applications it’s easier to use a simple PhaseOne setup than a full Sinar system with their new electronic shutters and control boxes. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by ynp

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[Stuart Richardson]

I will say, based on my experience using an S3 on a view camera, I would not recommend it. I was using a S3 attached to a Horseman LE via the Sinar Hasselblad mount adapter, then to the Hasselblad V to Leica S adapter. It works, but I think you can only really use lenses longer than 120 or 180mm and focus to infinity. Meanwhile, the adapter puts the camera way out the back end of the camera where it is unbalanced, and since the S3 has a big mirror and shutter, I found that vibration had a big effect on most shots, even with mirror pre-release. I also have the Leica S to SL adapter, and I have used that to hook up the SL2, and it works much much better on the view camera than the S3 does. So if your end goal is to use the S3 on a view camera, I would consider it carefully. I am sure the Sinar PMF-L will work better than my setup, but I don't think you can really get around the mirror issue unless you use flash to freeze everything. If I wanted to use a digital camera/back on a view camera, I think Phase One would be a better choice. Or even a camera like the Fuji GFX100s, as mirrorless is a much better implementation than using a mirrored camera (where you need to flip up and down the shutter and mirror every time you need to take a picture or turn the camera off and on etc.

In my opinion, the S3 is best used as a traditional DSLR, especially with its own Leica S lenses. If you already have an SL2, you might be better off finding a way to mount it on the P3...perhaps if you can find a sinar plate with a Nikon or Canon mount, you can find an adapter that will put the camera closer to the standard, and then you could use shorter lenses. I find the SL2 is also useful on the view camera because it can use multishot mode, which works quite well for static subjects in the studio...at least as long as you use continuous lighting.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[ynp]

32 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

my opinion, the S3 is best used as a traditional DSLR, especially with its own Leica S lenses. If you already have an SL2, you might be better off finding a way to mount it on the P3...perhaps if you can find a sinar plate with a Nikon or Canon mount, you can find an adapter that will put the camera closer to the standard, and then you could use shorter lenses.

I use the M-10r with the  Cambo ACTUS-B Mini. It works well with the enlarger lenses, and I believe the M11 will be even better on the setup because of its tethering capabilities. 

[Herr Barnack]

I don't think the M11 "puts" the S anywhere. 

They are two vastly different cameras, each having its place in the pantheon of Leica.

[John McMaster]

There is a dedicated rear standard for the S series to the Sinar P2 or P3, improves things over other view camera options.

john

[Sailronin]

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An M11 is as close to an S as a Vespa is to a Harley Davidson, yeah, the both have two wheels but that's about it. The S has larger pixel pitch, shallower depth of feel, true optical viewfinder (try using any mirrorless camera in a darkened studio shooting products on a black background using flash. Almost impossible to focus), and those wonderful if massive S lenses.

 

[John Smith]

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I don't think the M11 "puts" the S anywhere. 

They are two vastly different cameras, each having its place in the pantheon of Leica.

Maybe a few years ago. You just to look at the backs of the M11, Q, and SL2 to see where things are going. I doubt Leica, if it is going to continue the S system, is going to maintain a mirror, four buttons on the back, etc. The S doesn't have the legacy RF that the M does. I'd bet you're holding the last of the big OVFs.

[Herr Barnack]

I don't know how well the S system sells, but it seems that discontinuing it would cause heavy backlash from S owners; it would likely be a replay of when the R system was cancelled.

If Leica were to discontinue the S system, that would carry the tacit message that Leica can't cut in the medium format arena and it would in essence hand the medium format market over to Fuji.  I have a hard time seeing Leica doing that.

JMHO but as long as the S system doesn't generate a negative cash flow (or too burdensome a negative cash flow perhaps), Leica will continue to offer it.

[lx1713]

19 hours ago, John McMaster said:

I do not know what or how you shoot, but if using lenses with shutters can you not use a DB the same as you would have a film holder? 

john

The lens I chose has a floating element. Its, I think a new breed of Rodenstock lens that cannot take the usual leaf shutter between lens elements. It has a built in iris (aperture).

[lx1713]

19 hours ago, ynp said:

Yes. The bigger the merrier. A reliable live view through the C1 and ability to shoot Copal shutters with the PC cord. For the majority of applications it’s easier to use a simple PhaseOne setup than a full Sinar system with their new electronic shutters and control boxes. 

Thanks. Agree with the both of you except in the case of higher magnifications. I hope to use a view camera with tilt and shift for 0.3x - about 3x -4x magnifications. A 24x36 sensor has the best range but the 30x45 has the added advantage of 16 bit files. The tilt, shifts is very advantageous for 0.3x to 1x. My past experience is barebones at 2x to 3x. The one experience I had, I remembered the grief for many years. However I am getting more inquiries for that level of magnification so its dipping my toes in sort of thing.

And with the S3, I can shoot existing jobs at a higher quality output than my SL2. I don't really see the need for the S3 but who knows. The great thing about the SL2 and the SL2S is the automation in the studio suits me.

I also agree about the Sinar e-shutter and controls. Besides being way too high a price to invest, I prefer it fully built in either SL, S3 or the IQ4 (I don't know if this is the case) and trigger the lights with a transceiver.

Edited January 26, 2022 by lx1713

[lx1713]

18 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I will say, based on my experience using an S3 on a view camera, I would not recommend it. I was using a S3 attached to a Horseman LE via the Sinar Hasselblad mount adapter, then to the Hasselblad V to Leica S adapter. It works, but I think you can only really use lenses longer than 120 or 180mm and focus to infinity. Meanwhile, the adapter puts the camera way out the back end of the camera where it is unbalanced, and since the S3 has a big mirror and shutter, I found that vibration had a big effect on most shots, even with mirror pre-release. I also have the Leica S to SL adapter, and I have used that to hook up the SL2, and it works much much better on the view camera than the S3 does. So if your end goal is to use the S3 on a view camera, I would consider it carefully. I am sure the Sinar PMF-L will work better than my setup, but I don't think you can really get around the mirror issue unless you use flash to freeze everything. If I wanted to use a digital camera/back on a view camera, I think Phase One would be a better choice. Or even a camera like the Fuji GFX100s, as mirrorless is a much better implementation than using a mirrored camera (where you need to flip up and down the shutter and mirror every time you need to take a picture or turn the camera off and on etc.

In my opinion, the S3 is best used as a traditional DSLR, especially with its own Leica S lenses. If you already have an SL2, you might be better off finding a way to mount it on the P3...perhaps if you can find a sinar plate with a Nikon or Canon mount, you can find an adapter that will put the camera closer to the standard, and then you could use shorter lenses. I find the SL2 is also useful on the view camera because it can use multishot mode, which works quite well for static subjects in the studio...at least as long as you use continuous lighting.

Thanks, Stuart,

I went from Horseman to Sinar but that was in the 90s. It was a massive difference in rigidity and precision for film then. I think it's the worse today. So I agree with you because of both the vibrations and the play of the combined mechanical parts.

The PMF-L does seem much better. Both for the ground glass centering as well as being built for easy portrait and landscape change. And yes, only 120mm or longer lenses is suitable.

I almost never used a wide angle with my Sinar C2 in the 12 years of constant use then, I think while I would have enjoyed using the wide angles on an Artec with a PhaseOne, I have gotten away with the 16-35 on the SL2 (software perspective control) I decided I could comfortably give up a PhaseOne for that reason.

Totally agree with you on using the SL2 on the view camera. Hence my reluctance to go S3. I have an eBay page bookmarked with a Sinar to Nikon mount while I checked out the S3. I have reached out to get that S3 demo. Having come from a 4x5 background, I will be the first person to tout the advantages of a larger format with 16 bit files but I enjoy my photography more if it was simple and has a smooth workflow. The S3's higher quality files may tip my decision because it fits into existing use in-studio and the OVF is better in the studio. The PhaseOne just doesn't seem justified for its price on balance.

[lx1713]

18 hours ago, ynp said:

I use the M-10r with the  Cambo ACTUS-B Mini. It works well with the enlarger lenses, and I believe the M11 will be even better on the setup because of its tethering capabilities. 

Thanks YNP,

The lens I picked is actually closer to the traditional Rodenstock enlarger lens. And yes, the M11 Is actually on my list of possibilities because I have 2 M lenses for editorial jobs (but COVID constrains). The tethering capabilities is what excite me most. The M11 does have a very simple path of decisions for me compared to the S3 so I didn't really need to ask this forum.

[lx1713]

18 hours ago, ynp said:

I use the M-10r with the  Cambo ACTUS-B Mini. It works well with the enlarger lenses, and I believe the M11 will be even better on the setup because of its tethering capabilities. 

I have checked out the Cambo online. I guess the problem is basically me. Having experienced the Sinar system, I had to ask myself the what-if questions. Similar questions I asked of the focus stacking techniques.

My assessment is that, its a good system but lacks the range. Then I have to fact check my current needs. Do I still need the Sinar's capabilities? 5 kg vs 1+ kg? It's sufficient to cause me a fair amount of soul searching : ) At the end of the day, since I'm getting a Foba stand, weight isn't that big a problem. I'm getting a refurbished Sinar which all in is a little more expensive than a new ACTUS-B. I moved towards the Sinar.

[lx1713]

11 hours ago, Sailronin said:

An M11 is as close to an S as a Vespa is to a Harley Davidson, yeah, the both have two wheels but that's about it. The S has larger pixel pitch, shallower depth of feel, true optical viewfinder (try using any mirrorless camera in a darkened studio shooting products on a black background using flash. Almost impossible to focus), and those wonderful if massive S lenses.

 

Thats so true and that's a big factor. I'm setting myself with a greater proportion of LED only lights but adding a few AC strobes for those sort of work. Until COVID my kit is all battery powered strobes.

[lx1713]

8 hours ago, John Smith said:

Maybe a few years ago. You just to look at the backs of the M11, Q, and SL2 to see where things are going. I doubt Leica, if it is going to continue the S system, is going to maintain a mirror, four buttons on the back, etc. The S doesn't have the legacy RF that the M does. I'd bet you're holding the last of the big OVFs.

I think because Leica has the machining facilities it would adopt what Linhof and Rollei did except Leica has much more modern cameras to feed the company. So it won't do a long fade into irrelevance. Retaining machinist to machine the mechanical parts, re-engineer existing parts to accept modern pcb and electronics and modernise internal components. the SL summicrons look like they are designed that way.

And because given time, the S's OVF and mirror mechanism will become a cachet much like the M rangefinder and sell in the similar stable volumes. If you have a product that's simply the best of its class and second best is second hand, you are basically picking the customer. Not the customer picking you. This is a familiar playbook to Leica but of course I might be wrong.

[lx1713]

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I don't know how well the S system sells, but it seems that discontinuing it would cause heavy backlash from S owners; it would likely be a replay of when the R system was cancelled.

If Leica were to discontinue the S system, that would carry the tacit message that Leica can't cut in the medium format arena and it would in essence hand the medium format market over to Fuji.  I have a hard time seeing Leica doing that.

JMHO but as long as the S system doesn't generate a negative cash flow (or too burdensome a negative cash flow perhaps), Leica will continue to offer it.

I think you are right about the backlash but I considered Sinar deader than dead until I made contact. I was hoping for a Sinar P4, engineered for a 35mm sensor. Something more location friendly but I gave up waiting and made contact. That gave me hope but I guess not for a P4 : )

I doubt that the Leica S line will generate negative cashflow but definitely lower revenues comparative to the new lines. If Leica engineers continue refining there isn't really a reason to give up the S line anymore than giving up the M rangefinder.

[ynp]

1 hour ago, lx1713 said:

Do I still need the Sinar's capabilities? 5 kg vs 1+ kg? It's sufficient to cause me a fair amount of soul searching : ) At the end of the day, since I'm getting a Foba stand, weight isn't that big a problem. I'm getting a refurbished Sinar which all in is a little more expensive than a new ACTUS-B. I moved towards the Sinar.

I still have a Sinar P2 converted to P3. It’s much more stable and precise than the Actus. It’s difficult to get the standards 100 % parallel on the Cambo. 

[lx1713]

1 hour ago, ynp said:

I still have a Sinar P2 converted to P3. It’s much more stable and precise than the Actus. It’s difficult to get the standards 100 % parallel on the Cambo. 

😃 Good to know you! Is your P3 a Digital Focus version?

Ugh! (to not getting standards parallel on the Cambo)

I'm also getting a Foba camera stand. My prior grief with 2x - 3x magnification shooting with a Sinar could have been resolved with a proper camera stand or shooting at 35mm instead. I was very naive back then : )

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[ynp]

1 hour ago, lx1713 said:

😃 Good to know you! Is your P3 a Digital Focus version?

Ugh! (to not getting standards parallel on the Cambo)

I'm also getting a Foba camera stand. My prior grief with 2x - 3x magnification shooting with a Sinar could have been resolved with a proper camera stand or shooting at 35mm instead. I was very naive back then : )

No. It’s not the modern digital conversion . It was not made by Sinar, I just used the base of my p2, bought the  bellow 100 and bag, new 100mm frames and updated the gear and levels of the front standard. The rear standard is the P2 version. I also have a tapered bellow from 4,5 to 100 mm but I have not used it fr more than 10 years. I still have some CMV and CAB lenses, I used them with the Sinar M Shutter. I have converted my CAB lenses to the Copal shutter. My wife used to own an art business and my role was to shoot paintings. 
 

I have two Foba Studio Stands. One is Asaba 2,5 meter with one shooting platform. Another one is a special Foba stand with the Asaba base and a bracket for mounting of paintings. I don’t remember the name of the stand, I know it has been discontinued many years ago. I bought them new about 15 years ago and do not see any reason to sell them on the current second hand market. I made a mistake and sold my Foba repro stand , the vertical one, and miss it. 
I also have an acrylic Foba shooting table and I think that it was too expensive for that it is. A smaller Manfrotto table is what I use more. 
 

yevgeny