Where Does the M11 Put the S?

[lx1713]

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31 minutes ago, ynp said:

No. It’s not the modern digital conversion . It was not made by Sinar, I just used the base of my p2, bought the  bellow 100 and bag, new 100mm frames and updated the gear and levels of the front standard. The rear standard is the P2 version. I also have a tapered bellow from 4,5 to 100 mm but I have not used it fr more than 10 years. I still have some CMV and CAB lenses, I used them with the Sinar M Shutter. I have converted my CAB lenses to the Copal shutter. My wife used to own an art business and my role was to shoot paintings. 
 

I have two Foba Studio Stands. One is Asaba 2,5 meter with one shooting platform. Another one is a special Foba stand with the Asaba base and a bracket for mounting of paintings. I don’t remember the name of the stand, I know it has been discontinued many years ago. I bought them new about 15 years ago and do not see any reason to sell them on the current second hand market. I made a mistake and sold my Foba repro stand , the vertical one, and miss it. 
I also have an acrylic Foba shooting table and I think that it was too expensive for that it is. A smaller Manfrotto table is what I use more. 
 

yevgeny

Sinar, hopefully will give me a good refurb P3. Yours is a good reason why Sinars have faithful users.

: ) Foba still operational like many old brands but they have a different market now I think. I can still order a new stand from them but Foba, Linhof and Sinar are so stealth its like they are dead. I decided to get their Gamma stand. It's smaller and designed for lighter loads. I saw someone doing pull ups on your ASABA I think.

[ynp]

21 minutes ago, lx1713 said:

Sinar, hopefully will give me a good refurb P3. Yours is a good reason why Sinars have faithful users.

Thanks. Pass my Hello to Helga , please. 
 

yevgeny

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[lx1713]

: ) Christoph of MacConsultant responded to my email. Who's Helga? I might need your lead 😄

[ynp]

16 hours ago, lx1713 said:

: ) Christoph of MacConsultant responded to my email. Who's Helga? I might need your lead 😄

Sent PM

[hotshew]

Where Does the M11 Put the S?

The question is like asking where does the Nikon Z9 put the Hasselblad X1D -- i.e., the two camera systems are apples and oranges. Although relatively new to S system, I cannot imagine giving it up for M, or vice-a-versa.

I do hope Leica continues to develop the S system because they really phoned it in with the 007 => S3 update (pretty much just a sensor swap), which begs the question if S3 is end of the line. I find the S system formula (design, haptics, files, lenses) to be refreshingly fun to shoot and the files it produces (from sensor + S lenses) are unique from most other systems (incl. Leica) that are trending towards homogeneity, w/ few notable exceptions (e.g., X1D). Anybody who owns an S system already knows this, which is why they paid the ridiculous amount of money to buy into the system, and I suspect anybody who asks question about S3 (or 007) vs whatever, is comparing spec sheets. All of this, just my opinion, of course : -)

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by hotshew

[setuporg]

Quite simply, 60MP will show more people that 37MP of 007 are very different.  Got the last 3 of my all 10 S lenses back from Wetzlar with their motors updated (except the T/S of course), and shooting with S is such a joy.  Whether to get the M11 is a real question.  I guess having a flagship M is always de rigeur for Leica fans, but M has nothing on S, and M11 changes nothing.

Edited January 30, 2022 by setuporg

[tom0511]

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I am pretty sure that a print from S007+S-lens from 37MP will not suffer detail and sharpness and tonality vs a print from 60MP M11+M-lens. But this is only my guess, I havent checked.

(except at higher ISO) 

[Stuart Richardson]

Guys, let's not get out of hand. At the end of the day resolution is resolution, assuming an equally good lens. Based on my experience with the SL2 vs the 006 and 007 (and even S3), I can tell you that more megapixels does translate into more resolution of fine detail, and frankly tonality as well. The SL2 is sharper and more detailed than the S007 and S006, and the S3 is sharper than the SL2. This does not mean that the lower resolution camera is not good, but that it does not have as high a resolution. It is just one aspect of a camera. An important one, but one nonetheless.

And, yes, I have checked! I have 2m long test prints from the S006, S3 and SL2 that I made after I got the S3.

That said, it is only going to make a difference in larger prints. Ones that exceed the native resolution of the printer at a given size. I can't remember the exact size, but it is around 60x90cm I believe. If you make 100x150cm prints, the difference is very clear. At 100x67, it is not as clear. Anything smaller and it is not noticeable.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

If you make 100x150cm prints, the difference is very clear. At 100x67, it is not as clear. Anything smaller and it is not noticeable.

So in an exceedingly few cases.  For the vast and overwhelming majority 007 will do.:)

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Guys, let's not get out of hand. At the end of the day resolution is resolution, assuming an equally good lens. Based on my experience with the SL2 vs the 006 and 007 (and even S3), I can tell you that more megapixels does translate into more resolution of fine detail, and frankly tonality as well. The SL2 is sharper and more detailed than the S007 and S006, and the S3 is sharper than the SL2. This does not mean that the lower resolution camera is not good, but that it does not have as high a resolution. It is just one aspect of a camera. An important one, but one nonetheless.

And, yes, I have checked! I have 2m long test prints from the S006, S3 and SL2 that I made after I got the S3.

That said, it is only going to make a difference in larger prints. Ones that exceed the native resolution of the printer at a given size. I can't remember the exact size, but it is around 60x90cm I believe. If you make 100x150cm prints, the difference is very clear. At 100x67, it is not as clear. Anything smaller and it is not noticeable.

But, resolution aside, I would expect that, given favorable shooting conditions and disciplined processing/printing workflow, one would notice other rendering benefits from the (physically) larger sensor, even at smaller print sizes, notably in tonal gradations and transitions.  Is that not your experience?

Jeff

[tom0511]

But lenses are not equally good…M lenses (at least the wide lenses) show much more vignetting and less corner sharpness compared to S lenses. Some also more purple fringing.

and to me it looks M and SL files come out more contrasty than S files which seem to show more midtones.
also ( and I dont know why) - if you do exp correction in post, the S files can take a lot of ‚abuse‘.

I dont doubt Stuarts printing experience though. I totally trust his findings.
 

S files just wow me so often.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by tom0511

[Jon Warwick]

5 hours ago, Jeff S said:

But, resolution aside, I would expect that, given favorable shooting conditions and disciplined processing/printing workflow, one would notice other rendering benefits from the (physically) larger sensor, even at smaller print sizes, notably in tonal gradations and transitions.  Is that not your experience?

Jeff

In my case, not as much as I’d previously assumed ….perhaps due to some of the recent developments in tonal gradations and acuity from the latest full frame sensors? I’ve recently done 16” test prints off what would be 60” wide images from the 60mp M11, and my GFX100S ….not really tests conducted with great precision but they were the same scenes within minutes of one another at the equivalent f stops and ISOs ….. and quite frankly to my eyes they looked ridiculously similar  in many ways, including in resolution and tonality. Really hard for my eyes to see any difference between the test prints. It surprised me when I take into account both the 60mp vs 100mp sensors and different sensor format sizes. It’s possible the lens, a Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar, that I used on the M11 is a particularly good one in resolving power, and combine that with a very well refined M11 sensor that Leica has managed to eke out is helping the M11 punch above its megapixels and smaller-sized sensor in terms of resolution and tonal gradations and transitions? Maybe others would come to a different conclusion, but the above is what I’m personally seeing in these test prints.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Jon Warwick

[Stuart Richardson]

19 hours ago, Jeff S said:

But, resolution aside, I would expect that, given favorable shooting conditions and disciplined processing/printing workflow, one would notice other rendering benefits from the (physically) larger sensor, even at smaller print sizes, notably in tonal gradations and transitions.  Is that not your experience?

Jeff

It is definitely my experience with film. Not so much with digital. It is definitely the case when comparing like with like. For example, comparing the S006 to the M9...the S006 is quite a bit ahead, but you are comparing the same sensor with double the size. But comparing the SL2 to the S3? I noticed they had different characteristics, but not really in tonal gradation. At least not specifically that. I noticed more that I preferred the color and file flexibility of the SL2, while the S3 had better highlight retention. Mostly it made me wish that the SL2 sensor had been used in the S3. I prefer the color response and sensor baseline noise in the SL2. When you push the shadows they stay cleaner and have no banding. Highlight retention is not a big problem for me...shadow detail is. I am not sure if it is because I learned using slide film, but I prefer to shoot to protect highlights and then push as needed, whereas the S3 wants you to expose for the shadows and pull back the highlights. If you do the opposite, before long you run into uncorrectable banding. If you do not push the files around too much, it is not a problem you will encounter often.

As for the M11, I cannot say, as I have not used it. But I suspect that since it is an up to date sensor with more resolution, it will certainly outresolve and likely outperform a sensor like the one in the 007, which is 7 years old. That does not mean you can't prefer the S007 output! If you like the look of the S007, then it is a really superb camera, as it has good detail, wide dynamic range and good ISO performance. It is a great camera, but it is also a great camera that has a sensor which is several generations old, and we are still in a place where sensors get technically better with each generation. It does not invalidate the older sensors, but it is hard to argue that the newer ones are inferior.

[davidmknoble]

The one thing I've not seen here (I think, reading four pages) is the color. I think the M11 for the first time is producing color files that are really close to the S colors.

I'm not worried about the lenses becoming outdated.  Everything comes at a cost.  I still use the APO R 70-180 f/2.8, the R 80-200 f/4, the APO R 180 f/2.8.  All these lenses are spectacular, sharp, low distortion, and tremendous color lenses.  Oh, and from the 1990s.  They are manual focus, but the design and the glass is great.  The S lenses have an incredible character to them and I am pretty sure Stefan Daniel said more than once that even with the S3 the S lenses have more to give.

Honestly, I don't mind if Leica makes a mirrorless style S with an adapter for the S lenses, but I hope they continue the OVF.  Even with the adjustments that are necessary over time, it is much more fun to create through the OVF.

[da_eltsch]

Am 27.1.2022 um 07:12 schrieb ynp:

Sent PM

I can just second that: Christoph is just the best.

Talk to him what you need for which purpose and he will  provide excellent assistance and find out a good suggestions / deal for you.

i am happy camper with the Sinar lanTec and had two weeks ago a good discussion in how to enter the P3df world.

sorry for not adding to the S M11 discussions, for me there is no connection 

[epines]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:33 PM, hotshew said:

they really phoned it in with the 007 => S3 update (pretty much just a sensor swap)

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree here. I had the 007 briefly and now have the S3. Here are the improvements, in my experience:

- more resolution
- higher maximum ISO
- cleaner images at high ISOs. It's truly impressive.
- a little more dynamic range
- better video (4K with the entire sensor width)
- better skin tones
- better color science and color
- 8 min. maximum exposure
- more accurate focusing (Leica says the focusing is the same, but it's been my experience and the experience of others I've talked with that it's better in the S3)
 

I feel that, as a system, it really hits the sweet spot. I've used the Hasselblad H system for about 12 years and the Nikon D850 since it came out. The S system is smaller, lighter and faster than the H system. The color and rendering are unmatched. The lenses are the best I've ever used, even wide open. It's better than either of those other systems at high ISOs. It checks all the boxes for me. And I've been a professional shooter for about 20 years.

 

[Al Brown]

4 hours ago, epines said:

I'm going to respectfully disagree here. I had the 007 briefly and now have the S3. Here are the improvements, in my experience:

- more resolution
- higher maximum ISO
- cleaner images at high ISOs. It's truly impressive.
- a little more dynamic range
- better video (4K with the entire sensor width)
- better skin tones
- better color science and color
- 8 min. maximum exposure
- more accurate focusing (Leica says the focusing is the same, but it's been my experience and the experience of others I've talked with that it's better in the S3)
 

I feel that, as a system, it really hits the sweet spot. I've used the Hasselblad H system for about 12 years and the Nikon D850 since it came out. The S system is smaller, lighter and faster than the H system. The color and rendering are unmatched. The lenses are the best I've ever used, even wide open. It's better than either of those other systems at high ISOs. It checks all the boxes for me. And I've been a professional shooter for about 20 years.

 

Post a link to your portfolio/webpage so we can share the excitement.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Al Brown

[Pieter12]

The one factor that no-one seems to be taking into account is size and weight. Unless you shoot on a tripod or monopod all the time, the smaller, lighter camera will be easier to hand-hold, giving sharper images no matter the resolution. The S is a beast and so are the lenses. I love both the the camera and the images I get from it, but I am also fully aware of the limitations of any large, heavy camera. You are not going to hand-hold the S with the 70 or 35 at the same speeds that you would be able to hold an M camera with a 50 or 28mm lens, much less the S with the monster 120mm.

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

 I love both the the camera and the images I get from it, but I am also fully aware of the limitations of any large, heavy camera. 

Depends on the camera system.  I can easily handhold the large and heavy SL2 and 90-280, even at slowish speeds.  IBIS and OIS make the difference.

Jeff

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[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Depends on the camera system.  I can easily handhold the large and heavy SL2 and 90-280, even at slowish speeds.  IBIS and OIS make the difference.

Jeff

I can, too. But not at the same shutter speeds as a smaller, lighter camera with a lighter lens. Which also might be equipped with IBIS and OIS.