Al Brown Posted January 16, 2022 Share #21 Posted January 16, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 40 minutes ago, helged said: So the sensor could be from many manufacturers, Nobody at the moment makes a 60mpix sensor for cameras but Sony. I have thoroughly compared the color noise pattern n both A7R4 and M11 (links to the raw files are in the forum somewhere) and whereas the Leica M11 has slightly less noise at 12500 ISO and also less sharpness which must indicate a DNG tweakin camera going on, the PATTERN OF THE COLOR NOISE is very much the same. Perhaps another hint about the custom order of the sensor at Sony...? We will never know unless Leica leaks the intel. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 16, 2022 Posted January 16, 2022 Hi Al Brown, Take a look here Where Does the M11 Put the S?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
BernardC Posted January 16, 2022 Share #22 Posted January 16, 2022 Interesting research. Are there any telltale traces of PDAF? Obviously, the M11 doesn't have any AF, but the sensor should still show PDAF image characteristics, like banding. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted January 16, 2022 Share #23 Posted January 16, 2022 Customized version? ( given the different cover glass too ) If SL2S use a customized Sony sensor, I see it is highly possible too here. I love Sony sensor. Nothing wrong with it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted January 18, 2022 Share #24 Posted January 18, 2022 On 1/16/2022 at 4:04 PM, helged said: Only what people tend to believe, from the 6k postings on the M11 thread. So the sensor could be from many manufacturers, whereas the S sensor is not an off-the-shelf product. ahhh, the Epson, pretty little machine! 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted January 18, 2022 Share #25 Posted January 18, 2022 Well one thing the M11 does for the S is make it look like a cheap alternative...with all but the S3. These days used S bodies and lenses are cheaper than the M system for the most part, so it you want to shoot some of Leica's best rendering glass, the S looks like a reasonable choice, unless you are put off by size and weight. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 20, 2022 Share #26 Posted January 20, 2022 Am 15.1.2022 um 22:28 schrieb helged: …S3 and M10R share sensors.M11 uses, again as I understand it, a 'commercially' available (Sony) sensor, whereas S4 or whatever may or may not be in the pipeline. … M10M, too. It’s not the α7R IV sensor. The triple resolution allegedly with hardware pixel binning and a report by a forum member at the bottom of the first page in the thread below point to a custom sensor designed by/for Leica. Sony may still manufacture it. I suspect, jdlaing‘s confidential source is Dr. Ulrich Rhode. See all the way down his second post: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65832318 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 20, 2022 Share #27 Posted January 20, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 55 minutes ago, Chaemono said: M10M, too. It’s not the α7R IV sensor. The triple resolution allegedly with hardware pixel binning and a report by a forum member at the bottom of the first page in the thread below point to a custom sensor designed by/for Leica. Sony may still manufacture it. I suspect, jdlaing‘s confidential source is Dr. Ulrich Rhode. See all the way down his second post: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65832318 Jono believes that pixel binning is done in firmware, not hardware. That makes sense. The DR of lower resolution files is similar to the 60MP files after resizing in post. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted January 20, 2022 Share #28 Posted January 20, 2022 On 1/18/2022 at 7:36 PM, Stuart Richardson said: ... so it you want to shoot some of Leica's best rendering glass, the S looks like a reasonable choice ... Indeed, I don't come here very often nowadays, but it seems to me that there is a growing number of photographers on this subforum that see the light so to speak and learn to appreciate the optical qualities of the S lenses. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtai Posted January 22, 2022 Share #29 Posted January 22, 2022 A journalist friend of mine traded all his M10 digital gear for an SL2 kit for the AF and then bought an S 007 kit used when an opportunity arose and is now over the moon claiming image quality is at an entire stratosphere. It was horrible for him to tell me this! The M system seems to be overshadowing other Leica offerings and I can’t recall any buzz about the S system at all and fear Leica would not continue to support and update the S the moment I buy into it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 22, 2022 Share #30 Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) On 1/15/2022 at 10:28 PM, helged said: Edited January 22, 2022 by nicci78 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 23, 2022 Share #31 Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) I believe everything wider than 50 mm the S lenses beat the according M lens at least in regards of corner performance. Even the old S007 camera delivers excellent color, and specially the midtones from the larger sensor have a great tonality. I still see the M11 more as a reportage style camera, with the rangefinder great for spontaniousnphotography, also the advantage that you can have a very light weight small package, so also great if weight is an issue (hiking as an example) IMO Leica M prices are starting to reach a level, which is getting harder to justify. take the 35 M Apo vs the sl counterpart ( which is supposed to be as good, but includes AF and weather seeling) or S counterpart. Wow. I one way impressive how good they make small lenses, but it really comes at a price. I will continue tomalsonuse the M system , but The S IQ is still something else. Edited January 23, 2022 by tom0511 2 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 23, 2022 Share #32 Posted January 23, 2022 Just took some images with the S007 and 35mm at f2.5 and the M11 with 28 Summilux at f2.0 with 36MP (medium dng). While in center detail sharpness is comparable, everywhere else the S+35mm just blows away the 28 Summilux on the M11 at least at those wider apertures.And the 28 Lux is not supposed to be a soft lens. Maybe field curvature? Not typical landscape aperture, so I shall also compare at f8, but not today. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 23, 2022 Share #33 Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, tom0511 said: Just took some images with the S007 and 35mm at f2.5 and the M11 with 28 Summilux at f2.0 with 36MP (medium dng). While in center detail sharpness is comparable, everywhere else the S+35mm just blows away the 28 Summilux on the M11 at least at those wider apertures.And the 28 Lux is not supposed to be a soft lens. Maybe field curvature? Not typical landscape aperture, so I shall also compare at f8, but not today. A more interesting comparison might be using the S 45 Elmarit and the M 35 APO Summicron. Even still, nothing substitutes for the larger sensor area of the S in terms of tonal gradations and overall rendering, not just detail, despite the older generation technology. The lenses were also built to high standards for optical viewing without distortions, not aided through software correction. The problems with the S system aren't about IQ, IMO; rather it's been more about the changed competitive landscape and market pricing since launch (enter Pentax at $10k vs the S at the time at $25k, followed by Hasselblad and Fuji), the issues surrounding lens AF motors, and such. The IQ has never been in question. Jeff Edited January 23, 2022 by Jeff S 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 23, 2022 Share #34 Posted January 23, 2022 High Jeff, I don't have the M35APO since I was fine with my M35FLE, so I can't compare. The S35 is 10 years old, the Summilux 28 M is a quite modern design. New prices for S are steep, but used prices for S equipment are very low. Overall the comparison was more for fun and out of interest when I read this thread. Overall these are totally different systems. Shooting M,SL and S my findings over the last 2 years are that the weakest point of the M system is vignetting and corner performance of wider lenses. For many typical M-subjects this is a non issue, but its impressive how good the S lenses are in this regard (as well as SL lenses). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 23, 2022 Share #35 Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, tom0511 said: The S35 is 10 years old, the Summilux 28 M is a quite modern design. New prices for S are steep, but used prices for S equipment are very low. Indeed, on both counts. That’s why I wrote “despite old technology” and cited two key reasons. Another reason is the sheer size of the S lenses vs M lenses; more can be done with more space, as Karbe explains. The used market reflects the factors I cited. And the S007 is still currently selling, but can be found new at discount prices. Only Leica knows how the S3 is selling, but I doubt the numbers are anywhere close to Leica’s hope for the system when it was launched; only they know. I wasn’t expecting any more tests from you or others; my points were more general in nature. Jeff Edited January 23, 2022 by Jeff S Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted January 23, 2022 Share #36 Posted January 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Jeff S said: Indeed, on both counts. That’s why I wrote “despite old technology” and cited two key reasons. Another reason is the sheer size of the S lenses vs M lenses; more can be done with more space, as Karbe explains. Indeed, the M lenses (I have the 50mm APO) are wonders for their size. I have always felt the the SL lenses were comparable in size/weight to the S but for a smaller sensor.... john Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 24, 2022 Share #37 Posted January 24, 2022 vor 13 Stunden schrieb John McMaster: Indeed, the M lenses (I have the 50mm APO) are wonders for their size. I have always felt the the SL lenses were comparable in size/weight to the S but for a smaller sensor.... john At least the SL-APO-Summicrons are in between S and M lenses - size wise. The 50/1.4 SL is quite a beast though. No doubt that the S is not a compact camera system But also no doubt the lenses in combination with the sensor shine, specially if you are also interested in shooting the lenses not only stopped down. I mean in response to the original post: The S is clearly not the system where Leica seems to do much R&D or innovation, at least not in the DSLR-design. I expect a mirrorless version (but then I would also expect new lenses optimized for mirrorless). But the S system is still a different tool vs the M, and just because the sensor of the M11 has a good noise behaviour and 60MP doesnt mean the whole package delivers the same kind of IQ. I think the system where we could expect the most innovation is the SL system. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx1713 Posted January 25, 2022 Share #38 Posted January 25, 2022 The M11's pixel binning technology should be a nice addition to the sensor on the S. Exceeding 24 mp does have a real impact on my storage. I was following up on Sinar who pushed me to reconsider the S system. Coming from an earlier era Sinar I dug deeper into the P3, I'm not surprised Leica purchased Sinar. Sadly, I think their digital backs are one of the casualties because of CaptureOne's support for the S system. I'm a little conflicted. The PhaseOne fits all of the Sinar technical cameras but the S3 I can sort of justify business-wise. So now I'm awaiting my Leica rep to arrange a meeting with the S3. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted January 25, 2022 Share #39 Posted January 25, 2022 If it is for things that you use your P3 for, I would look for a used PhaseOne IQ4150 personally. Larger sensor and no mirror box, so mates up to the rear standard better... john 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx1713 Posted January 25, 2022 Share #40 Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, John McMaster said: If it is for things that you use your P3 for, I would look for a used PhaseOne IQ4150 personally. Larger sensor and no mirror box, so mates up to the rear standard better... john I'm investigating this. So my PhaseOne dealer suggested an IQ3 but think there might be a couple of problems with this. Electronic shutters and the attendant limited range for flash sync. So the S3 is still in the running because of the mechanical shutter and its OVF. I hope not to just use the S3 for macro work so its got to work for its keep. The SL2 is on top of the list if I can find a good adapter solution. Its there simply because I have 3 SL cameras so having more systems is just a bigger headache. The Sinar is just a bellows so I don't consider it a separate system. The Artec and other Sinar cameras aren't really high on my list of shooting needs so the PhaseOne has a more limited application to my clients. Edited January 25, 2022 by lx1713 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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