Shutter noise in M11

[digitalfx]

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9 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

Then you obviously don t shoot much on the Street .  The shutter sound is just like an M10 with a VISO .. big Kerrr Plunk when the shutter closes followed by a mild shutter sound when the capture is made .  Only now you can t eliminate the KerrPLUNK unless you go to the electronic shutter .  

Im going to guess you dont have an M11...The shutter sound is absolutely nothing at all like the "M10 with a VISO", nothing. And the lag is measured in milliseconds, one reviewer calculated .017

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[Matlock]

6 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

No rebuttal, no excuses...just the facts as I presented them

But you mustn't let the facts get in the way of a good nonsensical argument. 😄

[Herr Barnack]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:02 AM, LeicaR10 said:

Tom0511 and Elmars,  I agree with you.  I must say that I am fairly shocked at all the whining and noise making over this excellent new M camera.  Leica took the best of the best, made it even better with over 40 improvements fielded a most excellent piece of craftmanship in the history of the digital M...AND they still complain.  I took my M11 out for the last 2 days and started to put it through its paces.  Simply amazing and photographs are stunning.  It is the best color, rendering and detail yet.  One would think instead of finding "faults", photographers would be grateful that Leica listened to many M users and improved the camera substantially.  I decided to ignore the nay sayers and simply get out and go create photographs as I have always strived to cause the viewer to: Stop, Look, Think and perhaps Feel something about that moment in time.  For me, that is all that matters.  r/ Mark

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

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[BJohn]

The point here is that people are discussing whether 17ms (I'm just quoting - I would need to test that myself) or similar is something one would notice - or which count when taking pictures. That does not matter at all. Even if your opinion is that no one could ever notice. The only fact that also other folks recognised is - and I am happy about that because I hope Leica is listening: there is a setback!

And in addition to that, a lot of question marks were raised why that change was executed in that way (we also provided potential firmware fixes like having us set everything on manual without any metering). That is something Leica should have had considered.

It's not a $900 Fuji (and about selling tons of these cameras): it's a high end premium and overall flagship camera (from my perspective). They took some of the soul from the RF away. I don't care whether other DSLMs work that way. These are mainly fanboy comments. If you won't criticise a thing: okay good. But some people do care. I mean, what would be your opinion if the LCD backscreen would have a screen resolution decrease - or if they would have changed the way the RF is working (because something else could be slightly better) and set it to minimum focus distance to 0.8m?

Small edit: Maybe some of us are wrong (myself included) and Leica shouldn't listen to us because the rest is happy. Maybe they should - in the future - don't try to improve the RF mechanism but rely solely on an included EVF (like some Leica Q with an M mount). At the end, it's about sales.

Edited January 16, 2022 by BJohn

[Herr Barnack]

17/1000ths of a second - I have a hard time buying that any photographer will be able to tell the difference...

[elmars]

 

[Fedro]

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cant believe we are having a thread about this, but then again we did before on previous models, so I guess it is a tradition

Mine is slghtly louder, but definitely not like the original M10. If it really bothers you the E-shutter option is totally silent

[glenerrolrd]

37 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

Im going to guess you dont have an M11...The shutter sound is absolutely nothing at all like the "M10 with a VISO", nothing. And the lag is measured in milliseconds, one reviewer calculated .017

Of course I have an M11 !  I don t work on rumors .   I have had every M digital model and current own two M10M and two M10R PLUS.a new M11 .  Typical of this forum say anything is a problem and you are immediately challenged as to your competence .  Agree the lag is not noticeable (which I never mentioned).  

Leica made a huge deal out of the smooth silent shutter of the M10_P and yes I could hear and feel the difference .  Just like I can tell that the M11 is a step backwards in shutter smoothness and sound.  Most agree the shooting experience is important even of it doesn t really effect the utility of the camera .  

Just keep changing the subject and see if you can move the argument to something different . This problem has been reported by Steve and others .  Sure its a perception ...vibration,sound etc ...But its not a smooth quality feel like the M1OP,M10M and M10R which are the best . 

 Its exactly like an M10R with a VISO ...LV is always on , shutter closes and then shutter opens and closes to record the exposure .  Its the first shutter closure thats different from an M10R thats not on LV .   THUMP-CLICK  verse CLICK .  

We know why they did this ..to achieve off the sensor exposure metering but at the expense of the formerly smooth and near silent shutter .  Of course we will all adapt ..there are many reasons to like the M11 .  But disavowing any difference in the shutter sound AND FEEL is poor form ...especially for a moderator . 

 

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

Of course I have an M11 !

 

And you already wrote in post #40 that it was on your desk.    
 

Jeff

[glenerrolrd]

38 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

TYPICAL RESPONSE BY THE LEICA LOYALIST .  Any challenge is met by grade school bullying .  When someone is trying to make a serious post its rude and uncalled for to ridicule .  You should be put in "Time Out".  

I actually use my M cameras and last count I had an even 10 ....M bodies .   200,000 images mostly on the street with Leica M s.   When you shoot that much,  you notice any change .  Yes I am hyper sensitive to sound and feel . I will of course ..like every other new M body ..adjust to the sound and feel of the M11 .  

My point was simple and its accurate ..not something imagined or do to my inexperience .  The shutter design starts with an open shutter because its in LV ...this requires an extra closure of the shutter which is felt and heard as a "THUMP". ..after that shutters appear to be exactly the same .  

As to any lag time issues...I have insufficient experience to develop an opinion .  I do know that my friends, who are Photojournalists , are bothered by stuff I can t even identify . Speed and responsiveness is critical .  The M11 will be faster than I am .  

[Herr Barnack]

14 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

TYPICAL RESPONSE BY THE LEICA LOYALIST .  Any challenge is met by grade school bullying .  When someone is trying to make a serious post its rude and uncalled for to ridicule .  You should be put in "Time Out"...

😅  It was intended as humor.  If you did not find it humorous, then we appear to have different views on what's funny.

Perhaps you might possibly consider chilling out just a tiny bit? 

Quote

... grade school bullying...

Given the tone of your pulpit pounding, the irony of you accusing me of bullying cannot possibly be overstated.

And we're back to the chilling out thing...

Edited January 16, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[SrMi]

54 minutes ago, BJohn said:

The point here is that people are discussing whether 17ms (I'm just quoting - I would need to test that myself) or similar is something one would notice - or which count when taking pictures. That does not matter at all. Even if your opinion is that no one could ever notice. The only fact that also other folks recognised is - and I am happy about that because I hope Leica is listening: there is a setback!

<snip>

Setback is a bit strong word, but I can work with that. When I fly from USA to Europe, it is a setback if I arrive 17ms later than I should have, but I really don't mind :).

[digitalfx]

1 hour ago, glenerrolrd said:

Then you obviously don t shoot much on the Street .  The shutter sound is just like an M10 with a VISO .. big Kerrr Plunk when the shutter closes followed by a mild shutter sound when the capture is made .  Only now you can t eliminate the KerrPLUNK unless you go to the electronic shutter .  

Very sorry I missed the part about the M11 sitting on your desk. I assumed by your descriptions that you must not have an M11:

"big Kerrr Plunk when the shutter closes followed by a mild shutter sound"

"The shutter sound is just like an M10 with a VISO"

The M10 shutter with a Visoflex and even without a Viso is significantly louder than the M11 (and M10R). Maybe you meant to say M10R?

Regarding "big Kerr Plunk"...maybe this is semantics...but I just dont hear a big Kerr plunk. I hear muted sounds that are slightly longer in duration than my M10M.  No question at all that the shutter sound is different, I stated that in my first post...IMO its not significant enough of a difference to have this level of angst. Regardless im not sure why it matters, its too late for Leica to go back to the old metering on this model.

[glenerrolrd]

48 minutes ago, BJohn said:

The point here is that people are discussing whether 17ms (I'm just quoting - I would need to test that myself) or similar is something one would notice - or which count when taking pictures. That does not matter at all. Even if your opinion is that no one could ever notice. The only fact that also other folks recognised is - and I am happy about that because I hope Leica is listening: there is a setback!

And in addition to that, a lot of question marks were raised why that change was executed in that way (we also provided potential firmware fixes like having us set everything on manual without any metering). That is something Leica should have had considered.

It's not a $900 Fuji (and about selling tons of these cameras): it's a high end premium and overall flagship camera (from my perspective). They took some of the soul from the RF away. I don't care whether other DSLMs work that way. These are mainly fanboy comments. If you won't criticise a thing: okay good. But some people do care. I mean, what would be your opinion if the LCD backscreen would have a screen resolution decrease - or if they would have changed the way the RF is working (because something else could be slightly better) and set it to minimum focus distance to 0.8m?

Small edit: Maybe some of us are wrong (myself included) and Leica shouldn't listen to use because the rest is happy. Maybe they should - in the future - don't try to improve the RF mechanism but rely solely on an included EVF (like some Leica Q with an M mount). At the end, it's about sales.

If you or others noticed this ..and its worse than the M10_P/R/M ....its worth noting .  Using a Leica M  for street ...requires hand eye coordination and practice .  Timing is a critical success factor .  Really good street photographers shoot a lot ..some of us not so blessed have to practice .  Any "Noticeable " shutter lag can throw off your rhythm .  When you shoot enough you can move into a zone (same concept as tennis ) .  Change in equipment is not your friend .  

Each new M has introduced a learning curve ...its takes time to adjust .  You will adapt ...  For fun I often shoot professional tennis WITH an M .  Have found nothing that improves MY speed and responsiveness faster .  A few long days of tennis and I can follow focus players with an M .  You can see exactly how much shutter lag effects you capture .  I want the ball on the strings .  Obviously the M is the wrong tool for this ....but sometimes you just can't take all your gear .  

[glenerrolrd]

11 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

😅  It was intended as humor.  If you did not find it humorous, then we appear to have different views on what's funny.

Perhaps you might possibly consider chilling out just a tiny bit? 

Given the tone of your pulpit pounding, the irony of you accusing me of bullying cannot possibly be overstated.

And we're back to the chilling out thing...

Making "FUN" of someones serious post is an effective technique to discredit a debate opponent .   Humor at whose expense ?  The intent was obvious . 

Just like our moderators challenging whether I even have an M11 .   The intent is obvious ....discredit the person not the argument .  

I guess its just not possible to have a fair and balanced discussion on the LUF .  My conclusion .

[Herr Barnack]

2 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

Making "FUN" of someones serious post is an effective technique to discredit a debate opponent .   Humor at whose expense ?  The intent was obvious . 

Just like our moderators challenging whether I even have an M11 .   The intent is obvious ....discredit the person not the argument .  

I guess its just not possible to have a fair and balanced discussion on the LUF .  My conclusion .

Okay, so chilling out is not working for you.

May I recommend four fingers of Elmer T. Lee?

Edited January 16, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[BJohn]

18 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Setback is a bit strong word, but I can work with that. When I fly from USA to Europe, it is a setback if I arrive 17ms later than I should have, but I really don't mind :).

Haha there is some truth in your example  I already stated that it’s much better than M10R with LV mode, so it’s potentially more a minor decrease in how the perfect solutions looks like (IMHO).

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

Making "FUN" of someones serious post is an effective technique to discredit a debate opponent .   Humor at whose expense ?  The intent was obvious . 

Just like our moderators challenging whether I even have an M11 .   The intent is obvious ....discredit the person not the argument .  

I guess its just not possible to have a fair and balanced discussion on the LUF .  My conclusion .

I was reading it as humor, not as an attack on you. 
There is a difference if a moderator participates as a regular user or a moderator. In this case, it was clear that digitalfx posted as a regular user. 
It is essential to have different opinions on LUF and discuss them. That does not mean that everyone has to agree with you or me.

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[glenerrolrd]

10 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

Very sorry I missed the part about the M11 sitting on your desk. I assumed by your descriptions that you must not have an M11:

"big Kerrr Plunk when the shutter closes followed by a mild shutter sound"

"The shutter sound is just like an M10 with a VISO"

The M10 shutter with a Visoflex and even without a Viso is significantly louder than the M11 (and M10R). Maybe you meant to say M10R?

Regarding "big Kerr Plunk"...maybe this is semantics...but I just dont hear a big Kerr plunk. I hear muted sounds that are slightly longer in duration than my M10M.  No question at all that the shutter sound is different, I stated that in my first post...IMO its not significant enough of a difference to have this level of angst. Regardless im not sure why it matters, its too late for Leica to go back to the old metering on this model.

Correct on the M10 with Viso ..I intended it to be the M10R or M10M with the new shutter and a VISO. 

The facts are that the M11 had a Kerr plunk followed a normal shutter open/close .  Thats all part of the shutter sound and feel .  Whether that matters is a function of personal perception .  YES many will not even notice .  But if you use an M as long as I have ...you can feel the difference immediately .  Exactly like you noticed on many previous M releases .  

I completely understand and agree that it should not matter .  In a few weeks or a month I will have adjusted and the M11 will be my friend .

Keep in mind Leica promoted the heck out of the M10_P new quiet shutter .  Or the fact that the M10 was slightly thinner than the M240 .   Sound and feel matters .  

[digitalfx]

7 hours ago, glenerrolrd said:

Making "FUN" of someones serious post is an effective technique to discredit a debate opponent .   Humor at whose expense ?  The intent was obvious . 

Just like our moderators challenging whether I even have an M11 .   The intent is obvious ....discredit the person not the argument .  

I guess its just not possible to have a fair and balanced discussion on the LUF .  My conclusion .

 

Again very sorry. In no way was I attempting to discredit you with my question. You made a statement that led me to believe, obviously erroneously that you didnt have an M11...thus the question. In hind sight it was not appropriate or necessary.

I am a Leica user, my comments are from the perspective of a user first. You singled me out in your post claiming I needed to recalibrate my hearing aid...when in fact I was posting the actual sound and waveforms of the shutter, so yes I over reacted.

MODERATOR COMMENT:

I think we all need to step back, take a deep breath and stick to the discusion and stop the name calling. We clearly all have differing opinions, which is just fine.