Why I will not be getting a M11...

[lct]

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1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

at 60mp DNG+JPG you can take 3 shots quickly and then there is a little buffer pause, but you can still shoot..

at 36MP you are at the same buffer speed of the M10-R and you can shoot and shoot.

The sound of the shudder is different. I like the M10-R shudder better.

My shudders are silent (just kidding) but thank you for these explanations. Makes sense to have a somewhat sluggish camera for landscapes and a more responsive one for moving subjects.

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, lct said:

I have no idea. I was just quoting Sony specs above but what do you mean when you say that the M11 can do click-click-click in RF mode knowing that the M11 is in LV mode all the time? Does it mean that you can do click-click and the third click does not fire or that you must do a fourth click to get your third photo? An M11 variant will have a larger buffer as often i guess but i would like to understand how the current model works if you don't mind.

No, M11 is not in LV mode all the time!

RF mode: sensor read in power saving mode for metering purposes.

LV mode: video signal from sensor displayed in EVF or LCD.

With my settings and in single-shot mode on my camera, I can shoot more images per second in RF mode than in LV mode. Buffer size does not come into play as I tested only a dozen shots.

[lct]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

RF mode: sensor read in power saving mode for metering purposes.

LV mode: video signal from sensor displayed in EVF or LCD.

Interesting thank you but i don't understand. When you are in what you call "RF mode" what do you see on your LCD? What the sensor is currently capturing no? Just curious.

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Interesting thank you but i don't understand. When you are in what you call "RF mode" what do you see on your LCD? What the sensor is currently capturing no? Just curious.

In RF mode, there is no display on LCD or EVF. The sensor is read only so often that metering can be computed. 

[Tailwagger]

11 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I don't have the M11, but I understand the default shutter position powered off is closed, so it has to open (with a clunk) on powering on. That is different from other mirrorless cameras - my CL and SL2-S are both open when powered down and there is no clunk on switching on. What could be the reason for this difference in the M11? Dust protection during lens changes? 

Dunno, but it is precisely the same as with the M10/M10-R... if when you turn the camera on, it was last in LV.  The sound and behavior is virtually indistinguishable, AFAIC. So if you want to get an impression of whats going on, just throw your 10 into LV, turn it off and on. Shoot with LV and you'll get a good understanding around how the M11 operates.  As for shutter lag, my guess in that the M11, while minimally slower than the M10-R in RF mode, is likely faster when both cameras are compared in LV mode. 

[sebben]

1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

Dunno, but it is precisely the same as with the M10/M10-R... if when you turn the camera on, it was last in LV.  The sound and behavior is virtually indistinguishable, AFAIC. So if you want to get an impression of whats going on, just throw your 10 into LV, turn it off and on. Shoot with LV and you'll get a good understanding around how the M11 operates.  As for shutter lag, my guess in that the M11, while minimally slower than the M10-R in RF mode, is likely faster when both cameras are compared in LV mode. 

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it’s actually slower than the M10 in LV mode according to Leica store Miami 

[SrMi]

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5 minutes ago, sebben said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

it’s actually slower than the M10 in LV mode according to Leica store Miami 

The difference is between 3 ms and 2 ms, right?

Where is that graph from (link)? Thanks.

[sebben]

It’s in this video. 
 

 

[Tailwagger]

58 minutes ago, sebben said:

it’s actually slower than the M10 in LV mode according to Leica store Miami 

I find that rather surprising and while it may indeed be the case, I'm struggling to understand why.  Perhaps it relates to the metering of more pixel sites, but the processor is known to be a significant upgrade so it strikes me as odd. I'm now curious about their methodology, though probably not enough to watch the video. I also wonder, if this is a simple press the shutter, or a half press. I never do a single full press, always half press, then fire, which is likely why lag is unnoticeable to me.  Regardless, in practice, I notice no difference between the two cameras, at least for the way I fire, which is pretty much always in LV with a half press. 

[SrMi]

53 minutes ago, sebben said:

It’s in this video. 
 

 

Thanks. It is at 1:14:25 (thanks Google for the transcript!)

So now we have a new record: 2ms difference in shutter lag between M11 and M10-R.

[IkarusJohn]

This thread should be renamed - “Why you should buy the M11”

Edit - okay, play fair.  What do I like about M11?

• latest sensor, with improved highlight recovery
• Maestro III processor
• 64GB internal memory
• USB-C charging
• no baseplate
• better battery
• improved EVF

That’s probably it.  What would make me consider buying an M11?

• black paint and no red dot, traditional script on top (sorry)
• fixed resolution (somewhere around 40MP would work, but whatever Leica thinks best as I’m happy with my 18MP Monochrom and 24MP M10-D)
• no in camera cropping
• bring back centre-weighted metering off the shutter with mechanical shutter without live view
• no electronic shutter
• more stable WiFi connection

Now, an LCD-less version of the above (M11-D) or M11-M might just about push me over the edge.

Edited February 8, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[Kwesi]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

That’s probably it.  What would make me consider buying an M11?

• black paint and no red dot, traditional script on top (sorry)
• fixed resolution (somewhere around 40MP would work, but whatever Leica thinks best as I’m happy with my 18MP Monochrom and 24MP M10-D)
• no in camera cropping
• bring back centre-weighted metering off the shutter with mechanical shutter without live view
• no electronic shutter
• more stable WiFi connection

I think you know as well as any of us that the M11 is designed to be customizable to an individual's way of shooting.

What you seem to be asking here of Leica is that they take all that away as a pre-condition before you buy one.

So given that most of the items your wish list isn't going to happen, is it safe to say you won't be buying one?

[shirubadanieru]

9 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

I think you know as well as any of us that the M11 is designed to be customizable to an individual's way of shooting.

What you seem to be asking here of Leica is that they take all that away as a pre-condition before you buy one.

So given that most of the items your wish list isn't going to happen, is it safe to say you won't be buying one?

I think he was being satirical but anyway basically that list is the M10-R lol so for the people who have said they won't be getting the M11, just get the M10-R or the M10P 😜 
So much choice out there for all of us, why complain. Just buy what you want instead of complaining about not buying something you won't.

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Kwesi said:

I think you know as well as any of us that the M11 is designed to be customizable to an individual's way of shooting.

What you seem to be asking here of Leica is that they take all that away as a pre-condition before you buy one.

So given that most of the items your wish list isn't going to happen, is it safe to say you won't be buying one?

Yes, totally safe.

@shirubadanieru, the title of this thread is “Why I will not be buying an M11 …” Not complaining, not posting lots of times explaining why I have bought an M11 (I haven’t), nor explaining why people are wrong for not buying an M11, nor why people should … but why the M11 is a miss for me.  That’s what the thread is about.

Now, why waste bandwidth explaining why I wouldn’t buy a camera, when I have more cameras than I use and I’m happy with what I have, etc etc?  The answer to that question isn’t hard.  I hope it is of comfort to you and to @SrMi that I’m not criticising your decision to buy the camera!

I’ve spent a fortune on Leica equipment over the last few years - I’m a Leica customer, through and through.  I have a suspicion Leica reads this forum.  Just a suspicion.  They already know what I think, as I have told them directly, but it does help me to really understand why, when the M11 was released, I thought meh …

More generally, if this is where the M camera is heading long term, it is parting company with the concept which attracted me to the M in the first place.  Not a big deal, just a clarification.

[cboy]

On 2/6/2022 at 9:31 PM, shirubadanieru said:

I'm setting 1/500 ISO 64〜12,500 as my auto iso settings. i find this to be perfect for street photography. For speeds lower than 1/500 I find you have to be careful not to move while you shoot. If yo stand still & shoot then you can do 1/(twice focal length) easily though.

Daytime is fine for those settings and is much like other previous M iterations. But the real gain should be low light for the M11, however the one-stop low light advantage is negated by the high MP magnified blurriness when using low shutter speeds😏

I've yet to see sharp low light street shooting using low shutter speed and available light....that's the real test for the M11 not daylight shooting. Also of non stationary objects😆

Edited February 9, 2022 by cboy

[sebben]

I’m in the same boat. @IkarusJohn
 

The question is why as an irrational Leica user that has spent a lot of money for no particular reason on Leica S007, Leica SL, SL2, M8s, M9, M10, M10D and way to many different lenses do I feel so unimpressed with the M11.

Honestly the only feature I find compelling is the USB-C charging port for the convenience of not having to carry around an extra charger. Hardly worth the cost of the upgrade…

Maybe the M has already reached its peak and all this extra messing around is just diluting it’s essence and desirability. Not to mention the ever larger increases in price of lenses and camera bodies which is starting to leave a bitter taste in my mouth. Somehow I feel like the passion for Leica is being taken advantage of…

 

 

[harmen]

This new M11 seems wonderfully capable at delighting those who choose to acquire it, while leaving those who choose not to buy it feeling that they did not miss out.  Sounds a bit like the next generation iPhone.  Cutting edge, cult following, devoted user-base, and yet those who decide the get the latest iPhone enjoy the latest real improvements, while those who wait for the next version are equally happy to enjoy the one they already hold in hand.

[Kwesi]

9 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Yes, totally safe.

@shirubadanieru, the title of this thread is “Why I will not be buying an M11 …” Not complaining, not posting lots of times explaining why I have bought an M11 (I haven’t), nor explaining why people are wrong for not buying an M11, nor why people should … but why the M11 is a miss for me.  That’s what the thread is about.

Now, why waste bandwidth explaining why I wouldn’t buy a camera, when I have more cameras than I use and I’m happy with what I have, etc etc?  The answer to that question isn’t hard.  I hope it is of comfort to you and to @SrMi that I’m not criticising your decision to buy the camera!

I’ve spent a fortune on Leica equipment over the last few years - I’m a Leica customer, through and through.  I have a suspicion Leica reads this forum.  Just a suspicion.  They already know what I think, as I have told them directly, but it does help me to really understand why, when the M11 was released, I thought meh …

More generally, if this is where the M camera is heading long term, it is parting company with the concept which attracted me to the M in the first place.  Not a big deal, just a clarification.

Good points all around. I sat out the 10-R because I felt that functionally it was too similar to my 10-P to switch - all the while enjoying the images that were being shared here.

Sometimes you just gotta sit out a round or two.

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

More generally, if this is where the M camera is heading long term, it is parting company with the concept which attracted me to the M in the first place.

One of the sad things about the internet age is that it's so recent. I'm sure had it been in full swing in the middle of the last century, we'd be able to go into the LUF archives and find that there were any number of  ii and iii shooters who felt the same way about the introduction of the original M.  More recently, we find any number of folks who are completely out on digital altogether. The evolution of our beloved RF is somewhat the frog in boiling water.  As the competitive environment becomes increasingly heated, it has nowhere to jump. 

The general problem, if you tend to view such things as problematic, is that products are not created in a bubble; they are created within the context of their time. The M, of course, was never designed for the digital age and that fact remains an ongoing challenge as the general goal posts that underly the technological side of photography continue to move. And while change is inevitable, progress, at least in the eyes of some, is not.  In the end, there is a difference between what is possible and what is practical. It is inevitable for example that someday, not all that far off, the mechanical shutter will go the way of the dodo.  This won't happen so much as a result of any technical advantage, but rather due to cost and complexity of manufacture. From a user's perspective, aspects such shutter shock or worrying about shooting wide open in bright sun will be a thing of the past, but OTOH the satisfaction offered by an actual shutter firing will be relegated to antiquity. Some will embrace such change as positive, some will conclude that sky has fallen, but over time the notion of a physical shutter will evaporate and become as irrelevant tomorrow as the need for cocking it is today.

We already pay a huge premium for an OVF/RF.  Unlike every other camera outside the Leica-verse, the price of an M increases, rather than decreases, over time. If the M11 had retained the base plate, preserved its light sensor, kept its brass hat, but cost $12K+, say... things that are all feel good features, but are largely irrelevant to the actual imaging result... how many sales would be gained or lost?  Five or ten years from now how many will be happy to pay double or more the current going rate to maintain continuity with the past?

So to respond to your question, I'd postulate that yes, this is indeed where the M is heading long term and there simply is no way around it.  If Leica doesn't continuously adapt and adopt the current technologies available into the M, there won't be any next M at all. 

 

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1 hour ago, sebben said:

I’m in the same boat. @IkarusJohn
 

The question is why as an irrational Leica user that has spent a lot of money for no particular reason on Leica S007, Leica SL, SL2, M8s, M9, M10, M10D and way to many different lenses do I feel so unimpressed with the M11.

Honestly the only feature I find compelling is the USB-C charging port for the convenience of not having to carry around an extra charger. Hardly worth the cost of the upgrade…

Maybe the M has already reached its peak and all this extra messing around is just diluting it’s essence and desirability. Not to mention the ever larger increases in price of lenses and camera bodies which is starting to leave a bitter taste in my mouth. Somehow I feel like the passion for Leica is being taken advantage of…

 

 

The boat's getting a bit crowded, over the Plimsoll Line now.

A couple of points:

I think you're right in saying that perhaps the M has peaked. I see no conceivable reason why 60mp are desirable or necessary for +85% users of the M system. By most real world measures it is not a "professional" camera system with usage that requires such output. The high mp number in a M comes as we know with it's own disadvantages that necessitate use of a higher shutter speed to counter the "camera shake effect" that one gets with high mp sensors, and the absence of IBS makes that high mp use a real disadvantage . The 3x sensor resolutions offered with the M11 I believe is an option that many owners will just ignore and go for the full 60mp most of the time. So, really, why is it there? Do the lower resolutions counter the "camera/pixel shake" problem, if so then maybe that's one advantage of it?

Yes there's some improvements in the M11 over the M10's, I'd like I think the new camera base, I'd like the larger capacity battery, I like too the idea of the 64gb internal storage but if that gets corrupted for any reason does that mean a long absence back to Leica servicing to sort out? If so that's not a plus at all...........And like you I'd welcome the USD connection even though how it's implemented does give me some pause.....I don't like the open port even though many think that's an irrational concern.

I do wish that Leica had stayed in or near to the 24mp universe and used the sensor that is in the SL2-S or some close version of it, added some improvements like the new base and battery and some physical and operational upgrades over the M10 line, but stayed at 24mp which honestly I believe, and have proven to my usage and satisfaction, to be the real "sweet spot" for a digital camera without IBS. I know to many that would be viewed as a retrograde step, but I think it's not, it hasn't been so with the SL line as many SL2-S affirm. I don't think that chasing higher mp's is a good race to join.

Having mentioned these points and not some others that come into the equation of whether I'd want to own a M11 I can't see what a camera company like Leica can do these days to be honest. It feels it has to keep "updating" it's products if only to appeal to those buyers who believe that they "need" such new features, ( when patently most don't ), but the ever increasing costs of a Leica camera as compared to other marques might be it's downfall. There's a dwindling pool of those who are wealthy enough to trade-up every 3-4 years or less just for the sake of doing so, there's many who are where I am now in that I cannot find justification to make such "upgrade" purchases. The M11 is close to $10K now and will only go higher with subsequent versions and models and I don't see how that's viable and, yes, it's a concern.

Edited February 9, 2022 by petermullett