Why I will not be getting a M11...

[neekon]

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10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes, there is no option, but does it matter for the lag? How much longer is the shutter lag and startup time when compared to M10-R?

 

6 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

So we keep moving the goal post on this topic I see. I'm not comparing the M11 to the M10-R, but I do suspect, since you asked, that the M10-R set to "classic" metering mode would be much less, almost instantaneous like other M cameras have come before the M11.

Satiated yet?

Imagine they had actually implemented the M11 with classic metering, but kept the speed and performance improvements afforded by the newer processor.  Imagine an digital M thats instantly ready the moment you turn it on.  Imagine the battery life of the M11 with the classic metering and new battery?  you would get thousands of shots on one battery.  Imagine the improvements they could've made in other aspects?  An EVF with a better screen, maybe the same one from the SL2?   So many possibilities to make this M the legendary camera they wanted.  Instead they kept up with the joneses and made it like every other mirrorless camera. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by neekon

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[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

So we keep moving the goal post on this topic I see. I'm not comparing the M11 to the M10-R, but I do suspect, since you asked, that the M10-R set to "classic" metering mode would be much less, almost instantaneous like other M cameras have come before the M11.

Satiated yet?

I was always talking about the same thing: is there are negative impact of the new shutter?

To answer that question, I always compared M10-R in rangefinder (classic) mode vs. M11.

While it is logical that an additional delay is introduced with the new shutter, the praxis and measurements show that difference is not perceptible for the shutter lag (difference of 0.017sec according to Sean Reid's measurements).

The startup times seem similar as well.

Edited January 14, 2022 by SrMi

[neekon]

Just now, SrMi said:

I was always talking about the same thing: is there are negative impact of the new shutter?

To answer that question, I always compared M10-R in rangefinder (classic) mode vs. M11.

While it is logical that an additional delay is introduced with the new shutter, the praxis and measurements show that difference is not perceptible for the shutter lag (difference of 0.017sec according to Sean Reid's measurements).

The startup time seem similar as well.

But, the start up time on the M10R is due to the outdated processor in the M10R.  You can tell with the red light blinking till its ready.  The startup time in the M11 is directly due to the newer shutter.   You click it on, and about 1 second later you hear the shutter open.  Thats just a poor design and gives the perception of a slower startup.  
It takes about 1 second or so to turn each camera on and be ready to shoot, but where the M10R is processing and getting ready. The M11 has to go through the whole "opening the shutter and activating the sensor process".   If the M11 had the classic metering, it would be instantly on.  The delay in start up is due to the new shutter.  
You lose all speed advantages because of the new shutter.  

[CGarrard]

1 minute ago, neekon said:

But, the start up time on the M10R is due to the outdated processor in the M10R.  You can tell with the red light blinking till its ready.  The startup time in the M11 is directly due to the newer shutter.   You click it on, and about 1 second later you hear the shutter open.  Thats just a poor design and gives the perception of a slower startup.  
It takes about 1 second or so to turn each camera on and be ready to shoot, but where the M10R is processing and getting ready. The M11 has to go through the whole "opening the shutter and activating the sensor process".   If the M11 had the classic metering, it would be instantly on.  The delay in start up is due to the new shutter.  
You lose all speed advantages because of the new shutter.  

I'm counting how many replies it will take before this fact takes ahold :). C'mon SrMi, I know you can catch up here

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, neekon said:

But, the start up time on the M10R is due to the outdated processor in the M10R.  You can tell with the red light blinking till its ready.  The startup time in the M11 is directly due to the newer shutter.   You click it on, and about 1 second later you hear the shutter open.  Thats just a poor design and gives the perception of a slower startup.  
It takes about 1 second or so to turn each camera on and be ready to shoot, but where the M10R is processing and getting ready. The M11 has to go through the whole "opening the shutter and activating the sensor process".   If the M11 had the classic metering, it would be instantly on.  The delay in start up is due to the new shutter.  
You lose all speed advantages because of the new shutter.  

You are correct that the new processor could have mitigated the impact of the new shutter. However, that is speculation.
The shutter lag is approximately the same in the classic mode M10-R and the new M11. Maybe the new processors also play a role in reducing the shutter lag, but we do not know.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

I'm counting how many replies it will take before this fact takes ahold :). C'mon SrMi, I know you can catch up here

I am a scientist and an engineer, not a philosopher. If I cannot measure it, it does not exist :).

[neekon]

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1 minute ago, SrMi said:

You are correct that the new processor could have mitigated the impact of the new shutter. However, that is speculation.
The shutter lag is approximately the same in the classic mode M10-R and the new M11. Maybe the new processors also play a role in reducing the shutter lag, but we do not know.

I am not talking about shutter lag when taking a photo.  I am talking about the startup.  

The lag from turning the camera on to being ready to shoot is slower, because of the new shutter system.   If they had the classic metering, the camera would be instantly on, not on in 1 second.   Would it really have been so bad to at least include it as an option?   at least for this model.  

[SrMi]

Just now, neekon said:

I am not talking about shutter lag when taking a photo.  I am talking about the startup.  

The lag from turning the camera on to being ready to shoot is slower, because of the new shutter system.   If they had the classic metering, the camera would be instantly on, not on in 1 second.   Would it really have been so bad to at least include it as an option?   at least for this model.  

My M10-R with classic metering takes at least 1.6 seconds to start up. 

[neekon]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

I am a scientist and an engineer, not a philosopher. If I cannot measure it, it does not exist :).

So you should know that by having the shutter open when the camera turns on.  It cannot be faster than the alternative.  There is no way for an M11 with classic metering to be slower at startup than the current M11 that has to open the shutter on startup.  It is a physical impossibility.   When i turn the camera on, and i can hear the sound of it turning on, thats a bad design.  Having to leave the camera on at all times when im out shooting is one solution that has been proposed, but that feels like the old say "hey doc, it hurts when i move this way" "then dont move that way".   

[neekon]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

My M10-R with classic metering takes at least 1.6 seconds to start up. 

The M10R has a processor from 5 years ago.  Its using significantly older technology in every way.  Its startup speed is annoying, but understandable.   Its also silent so theres that.

The M11 has a state of the art processor with state of the art tech inside it.  Startup should be instant, it should be an improvement.  The fact that it takes as long as a 5yr old camera takes is not a good look.   

[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, neekon said:

The M10R has a processor from 5 years ago.  Its using significantly older technology in every way.  Its startup speed is annoying, but understandable.   Its also silent so theres that.

The M11 has a state of the art processor with state of the art tech inside it.  Startup should be instant, it should be an improvement.  The fact that it takes as long as a 5yr old camera takes is not a good look.   

A Nikon Z7 starts up in 1.5 seconds. It would be fantastic if Leica M cameras could be faster than that. Only a few flagship cameras are below 1 second. Sony a9 is 1.2 sec.

[Guest]

I got my M262 just in time.

I like using the rangefinder and centre-weight metering ,i do not want live view and dislike EVF's.

Leica are slowly turning the M into a modern mirrorless camera that looks like a rangefinder camera in my view.

This camera is designed to get everyone using the EVF/live view as the normal in preparation for the future discarding of the rangefinder mechanism altogether.

Footnote- centre-weighted metering and your brain is all you need to get exposure correct in various conditions.

I had a modern olympus pen for a while and it was packed full of useless features and endless metering options ,pretty sure it could play the piano but i just wanted to throw it in the bin.

Lenses were nice though.

 

[Edax]

9 minutes ago, SrMi said:

A Nikon Z7 starts up in 1.5 seconds. It would be fantastic if Leica M cameras could be faster than that. Only a few flagship cameras are below 1 second. Sony a9 is 1.2 sec.

A Nikon D850 starts up instantaneously. Yes, instantaneously. But that is considered outdated technology 🙃

[Oswalt]

EVF only M with a SL mount. The tides are changing. The M11 is a very confused product that demonstrates using the RF is no longer central or a priority at Leica. They are homogenizing the camera, and it's definitely unfortunate. 

[neekon]

14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

A Nikon Z7 starts up in 1.5 seconds. It would be fantastic if Leica M cameras could be faster than that. Only a few flagship cameras are below 1 second. Sony a9 is 1.2 sec.

Any old dSLR was instant.  Things have gone backwards in terms of startup speed.  
 

1 minute ago, Edax said:

A Nikon D850 starts up instantaneously. Yes, instantaneously. But that is considered outdated technology 🙃

As did virtually every dSLR. 
My Canon Digital Rebel took about 2-3 seconds to startup, but that was an entry level camera from 2003

 

[neekon]

3 minutes ago, Oswalt said:

EVF only M with a SL mount. The tides are changing. The M11 is a very confused product that demonstrates using the RF is no longer central or a priority at Leica. They are homogenizing the camera, and it's definitely unfortunate. 

Then make an EVF only M.  have 2 lines of cameras.   or make an SL in a rangefinder style body.   
Leave the M alone.  The M11 as released, but with the classic metering mode as an option wouldve been the perfect camera

[Alistairm]

3 minutes ago, Oswalt said:

EVF only M with a SL mount. The tides are changing. The M11 is a very confused product that demonstrates using the RF is no longer central or a priority at Leica. They are homogenizing the camera, and it's definitely unfortunate. 

Or it is a stunning new rangefinder with the best full frame sensor offered by Leica ever and many of the improvements that Leica has learned from its industry leading mirrorless experience with the Q and SL series cameras. It’s all horses for courses I suppose. It seems that mechanical shutters will eventually go the way of the dodo… this is an intermediate step. 

If it’s important to people, however, I see no reason not to release an MP that is more expensive and has the option to meter off the shutter… but I can understand completely why it wasn’t a priority for Leica to build what it considers to be an inferior and legacy functionality into the M11. 

[neekon]

20 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

I got my M262 just in time.

I like using the rangefinder and centre-weight metering ,i do not want live view and dislike EVF's.

Leica are slowly turning the M into a modern mirrorless camera that looks like a rangefinder camera in my view.

This camera is designed to get everyone using the EVF/live view as the normal in preparation for the future discarding of the rangefinder mechanism altogether.

Footnote- centre-weighted metering and your brain is all you need to get exposure correct in various conditions.

I had a modern olympus pen for a while and it was packed full of useless features and endless metering options ,pretty sure it could play the piano but i just wanted to throw it in the bin.

Lenses were nice though.

 

Thats exactly what this is.  Its a stop gap for an EVF only M.  
Maybe the M12, but its coming.   Sadly the last true M uses technology thats 5yrs old.  
May want to invest in older bodies(M9,M240,M262,M10) now before they go up in price.  
 I was hoping to be able to sell my M10R after this purchase, as i have done in the past.  Not anymore, i am keeping it.  

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[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, neekon said:

So you should know that by having the shutter open when the camera turns on.  It cannot be faster than the alternative.  There is no way for an M11 with classic metering to be slower at startup than the current M11 that has to open the shutter on startup.  It is a physical impossibility.   When i turn the camera on, and i can hear the sound of it turning on, thats a bad design.  Having to leave the camera on at all times when im out shooting is one solution that has been proposed, but that feels like the old say "hey doc, it hurts when i move this way" "then dont move that way".   

We can only speculate how much better an M11 with the classic shutter would have been than the current version. IMO, not by much, but a different opinion is valid. There is no data to prove either way.
In my posts on this topic, I implicitly disagreed that because of the new shutter, the M10-R is a better camera than the M11. However, that may not have been clear.

[Reciprocity]

9 hours ago, 2M6TTLs said:

You've just been lucky. I don't do anything unusual to put it out of alignment and I take care of the camera, meaning i don't knock it about, but it has still happened. How many years you have used Leica cameras has nothing to do with it ) in my case 30 years ).When this is a real problem is when you are traveling and not able to get it serviced because it means most your shots will be out of focus especially at wide apertures.

This is why I like the "P" versions with the front screw instead of the logo, it is super easy to fix in the field on your own.