Leica M12 -- your next camera?

[Herr Barnack]

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On 1/18/2022 at 2:49 PM, raizans said:

Mostly carrying things over from my M11 wishlist:

1. No brightness sensor mucking up the top plate.
2. Dot is black or silver chrome to match the body.
3. Combined shutter speed + ISO + EV compensation dial like the Minolta CLE and Zeiss Ikon.
4. 100mp sensor??? 16-bit RAW? Thinking about Ctein's old article lately: https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/02/why-80-megapixels-just-wont-be-enough.html
5. IBIS.
6. Sensor cleaning.
7. Video.
8. Full weather sealing, including updated lenses and lens mount upgrade service.

I can't really think of much else at the moment.

You forgot one thing:  The M12 integral EVF must have night vision capability.  😁

Edited November 22, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Stevejack]

2 hours ago, Artin said:

After a year with the M11 and about a Trabite of files here is my wish list 

1. IBIS

2. IBIS

3. IBIS 

in all honestly I have no major complaints I think at this point it is pretty much all I need out of a Rangefinder Camera. 
not interested in electronic shutter, no Vidio is good , I am good with the low light performance, love the on board memory, not at all bothered by the shutter sound. 
 Give me a nice shiny  Black paint version with some nice script on the top plate and I am all good for the next 15 to 20 years. 

IBIS will be nice. I'm also torn whether an integrated EVF would be a good or a bad thing. The Visoflex 2 is a colossal attachment, but it does its job. I like how Fuji implemented their EVF in the X100f, with a toggle to switch between OVF and EVF. IF Leica can manage something similar in the rangefinder housing, with the quality of the visoflex 2, I think they would have a winner.

With the M11 the lag penalty for using the live-view is reduced to the point where it's almost a non-issue. If they double down on their e-shutter and use a sensor which doesn't suffer from rolling shutter effects, it could be a very capable and completely silent camera.

 

 

[Jeff S]

43 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

 IF Leica can manage something similar in the rangefinder housing, with the quality of the visoflex 2, I think they would have a winner.

 

 

 

The Fuji lacks a true rangefinder.  The challenge for Leica was to incorporate both a superb RF and EVF. Stefan Daniel explained that they tried, but failed, resulting in unacceptable compromises to both. He said the hybrid VF attempts were done.

Jeff

 

[Stevejack]

8 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The Fuji lacks a true rangefinder.  The challenge for Leica was to incorporate both a superb RF and EVF. Stefan Daniel explained that they tried, but failed, resulting in unacceptable compromises to both. He said the hybrid VF attempts were done.

Jeff

 

Yep, hopefully the tech will advance to the point where it's possible next time. Any compromise to the rangefinder would certainly not be worth it. 

If we're talking 5 years between the M11 and M12, the same gap between the 10/11, then I have high hopes.  But they really need to be using a sensor which allows for blackout free shooting and no rolling shutter, or I think it's all for naught. The advantage of the rangefinder back in the SLR era was that you could track the subject with zero blackout. I think they need to keep that ethos up with any EVF implementation. The tech already exists, it's always shrinking, so fingers crossed for the M12.

[Stevejack]

2 minutes ago, Artin said:

The whole beauty of the M system is the Rangefinder , the lack of EVF , small manual focus lenses , a simple no nonsense interface, 

IBIS has kind of become a welcome desire due to the 60 mpx resolution it would add quite few stop advantage hence making the Camera even a better low light performer. For all the rest of the Hi Tech.  I have an SL2 to play with. 

I agree, but if you like to shoot 24mm and wider you're making serious compromises without either an EVF or an add-on optical viewfinder. I choose EVF on the digitals because it covers all focal lengths and you can preview any distortion / flare etc.

I would sooner take a stacked sensor over IBIS personally, but sure -  if I was in charge of designing the M12 I would go with whatever was best for the rangefinder experience at the expense of all other features. It's the point of the M series after all, and everything else added on needs to be done without compromise. If that means we're stuck with old sensor tech in the M12, so be it. 

[Jeff S]

55 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

Yep, hopefully the tech will advance to the point where it's possible next time. Any compromise to the rangefinder would certainly not be worth it. 

If we're talking 5 years between the M11 and M12, the same gap between the 10/11, then I have high hopes.  But they really need to be using a sensor which allows for blackout free shooting and no rolling shutter, or I think it's all for naught. The advantage of the rangefinder back in the SLR era was that you could track the subject with zero blackout. I think they need to keep that ethos up with any EVF implementation. The tech already exists, it's always shrinking, so fingers crossed for the M12.

He said it was a “no-go” given space and size constraints. The takeaway seems that they gave up on the hybrid approach.  But Daniels more recently said that they have not ruled out an EVF-based alternative.

 

Jeff

[archive_all]

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4 hours ago, Artin said:

After a year with the M11 and about a Trabite of files here is my wish list 

1. IBIS

2. IBIS

3. IBIS 

in all honestly I have no major complaints I think at this point it is pretty much all I need out of a Rangefinder Camera. 
not interested in electronic shutter, no Vidio is good , I am good with the low light performance, love the on board memory, not at all bothered by the shutter sound. 
 Give me a nice shiny  Black paint version with some nice script on the top plate and I am all good for the next 15 to 20 years. 

I think it was mentioned in an interview that they need to have only an electronic shutter to add ibis.

[Stevejack]

6 hours ago, Artin said:

With a bit of practice one can easily shoot wide angles with the Rangefinder.  I have done so with 24/ 21/ and the WATE but you are correct and the Viso does a good job ,   But what is the advantage of a Stacked sensor in a rangefinder ?  

Mainly in this case that there is no blackout in the EVF when the image is taken. On the M11, even when using the e-shutter there is blackout when the image is taken. With a stacked sensor you'll just have a visual indication that an image is taken, but you'll never lose sight of your subject. It's much more necessary with sports / wildlife photography where the action is moving fast, but if the ethos of the rangefinder system is to never lose sight of your subject I feel like it should be something Leica incorporates in the M12. 

[SiggiGun]

If I take the main "innovation" of the M11, I will say:

• KEEP IT
  • Battery
  • Flexible senor 18/36/60
  • No Bottom plate
  • USB-C
  • Aluminium body (black)
• ROLL BACK
  • Light metering
• ADD
  • IBIS if possible in the same body
• DO NOT ADD
  • Video
  • Any "marketing" gadget (kepp it simple)

[archive_all]

13 hours ago, Artin said:

In that case I rather they keep the mechanical shutter,,, I can’t deal with the silence it’s damn disorienting 

 

From https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2022/06/whats-really-new-about-m11-and-why.html

 

"One wish is the image stabilizer. Why doesn't the M11 have this? 

 

I would like to have that as well, but space is the limit here, because one of the specifications, even with the M10, was that the housing depth of the analogue M cameras should be retained. Because that's what makes the camera so handy. But it isn't ruled out that the image stabilizer could be integrated into the M at some point, for example, if we would do without the mechanical shutter and so the necessary space would be available again."

[didier]

I don’t see the need for IBIS as I shoot mainly people 

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, archive_all said:

 

From https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2022/06/whats-really-new-about-m11-and-why.html

 

"One wish is the image stabilizer. Why doesn't the M11 have this? 

 

for example, if we would do without the mechanical shutter and so the necessary space would be available again."

Nope. Still not enough room without increasing the body depth. 

[archive_all]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

Nope. Still not enough room without increasing the body depth. 

I don't know enough about that but I was just posting an article that I recalled. I'm actually not partial to ibis or a mechanical shutter. It'll be interesting to see how the m11 or m12 platforms develop in future iterations though.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

Nope. Still not enough room without increasing the body depth. 

Stefan Daniel said that there will be enough room if the mechanical shutter will be removed. Why do you disagree?

[Stevejack]

2 hours ago, Artin said:

I don’t understand the issue with the light metering, I think it is far more accurate then the M10R.  Or the 240.  

I think it's more to do with how that metering is achieved. Some really dislike the shutter being open permanently for the new metering method, it affects the sound of the shutter and to a (very) small extent the latency when taking a shot. This contributes to the overall impression some have that the rangefinder system has been negatively compromised for the e-shutter.

[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

I think it's more to do with how that metering is achieved. Some really dislike the shutter being open permanently for the new metering method, it affects the sound of the shutter and to a (very) small extent the latency when taking a shot. This contributes to the overall impression some have that the rangefinder system has been negatively compromised for the e-shutter.

It has been suggested that EFCS could solve the mentioned issues.

[Stevejack]

29 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It has been suggested that EFCS could solve the mentioned issues.

I get that it eliminates the need for the shutter to close/open at the start of the exposure, but if they use EFCS we'll still be stuck with rolling shutter which is a real pain. I guess if it's an optional mode it will be fine, but I really dislike using any e-shutter on non-stacked sensor cameras.

 

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

I get that it eliminates the need for the shutter to close/open at the start of the exposure, but if they use EFCS we'll still be stuck with rolling shutter which is a real pain. I guess if it's an optional mode it will be fine, but I really dislike using any e-shutter on non-stacked sensor cameras.

 

EFCS has no rolling shutter issues as the second curtain is mechanical.

It is the electronic shutter that has rolling shutter issues.

[Stevejack]

The EFCS is still e-shutter though. Sure the mechanical shutter ends the exposure, but not until the last pixel has been exposed for the duration of the shutter speed. You still have to wait 1/15 sec for all pixels to finish exposing. The only advantage to EFCS is that there is no need to wait for the shutter to close/re-open when you click the shutter, but you end up with rolling shutter as a consequence.

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[Stevejack]

Adding to the above, my guess is that the reason we don't get rolling shutter with the M11 when using mechanical shutter (even though we're still stuck with the limitations of the same sensor) is that the time it takes for the shutter to close/open is enough time for all pixels to be switched on and waiting for the shutter to open/close to make the exposure for the duration of the shutter speed.

I wish I understood it all a lot more, it's very confusing.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Stevejack