Leica M12 -- your next camera?

[IkarusJohn]

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6 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

Once they admitted the M9 sensor issue they had quite a good program to address it at least. 
 

I think one of the unedifying aspects of the various M11 issues is that Leica haven’t really had a mea culpa moment nor been clear what they think the issue(s) is/are and what they will do for owners. 
 

For example if they said it’s caused by X and we’ll offer users a 5 year warranty on all M11 bodies in recognition of the error, at least people would feel that their concerns were being addressed. 

Fortunately I’ve not yet had serious issues but it feels like there’s definitely some kind of issue or issues and that Leica ought to be up front. 
 

Even Porsche, Bentley etc have manufacturer’s recalls without brand damage so Leica should be able to manage it. 

The program to replace the sensors was okay.  Not really exemplary, but okay.  If you sent your camera back early, they simply replaced your corroded sensor with another one with the same faulty cover glass and when that corroded, they didn’t want to know you (not their finest hour).  I was lucky with my Monochrom, and got the improved sensor, but that was only available free for a while, then it ceased to be available at all.

I agree on the M11, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.  It would seem the issue is fundamental - the software is asking the camera to do more than the hardware can cope with. My guess is it’s not a singular issue, which is why Leica is chasing its tail on this 2 years after release.  The solution would either be to recall all M11 cameras and replace the processor or some other critical part of the electronics (at huge cost and reputational damage) or disable one or more of the new functions or slow everything down to solve the log-jam.

Then again, they could just deal with the “small number” who have a problem and hope the whole thing goes away.

I’m betting on this last approach.

For the M12, this gives them a couple of options - more powerful hardware to cope with the new functionality, which might open the door to even more stuff, or revert to the “simpler” camera, much like when they went from the Swiss Army knife M(240) to the slimmer, less optioned and more refined M10.

Edited May 23, 2024 by IkarusJohn

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[Jeff S]

On 5/22/2024 at 7:52 PM, hjddd said:

there is one thing we can assure， M12 series will have even worse building quality than older models。 If you have every model from M9 to M11-P like me， you will understand what Iam talking about 。 

I’ve owned the M8.2, M(9) Monochrom (used, with new sensor), M240, M10, M10 Monochrom and M10-R.  I’ve found each subsequent iteration to be more robust, quieter, well constructed, and without operational issues. Haven’t tried any M11 model; no interest.

Jeff

Edited May 24, 2024 by Jeff S

[lct]

11 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I’ve owned the M8.2, M(9) Monochrom (used, with new sensor), M240, M10, M10 Monochrom and M10-R.  I’ve found each subsequent iteration to be more robust, quieter, well constructed, and without operational issues. [...]

Same here about M8.2, M240 and M11 so i hardly see why the M12 would have any "worse buiding quality".

[IkarusJohn]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

Same here about M8.2, M240 and M11 so i hardly see why the M12 would have any "worse buiding quality".

Certainly, my M10-D feels more solid in the hands than my Monochrom. No reason to question build quality, to my mind. 

Functionality is another issue entirely. 
 

[lct]

Not sure on which basis the functionality of the M12 could be questioned either. Apart from its IR sensitivity, my M8.2 was flawless, as are my M240 and M11 currently. With IBIS, if any, the M12 should be even more functional.

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Not sure on which basis the functionality of the M12 could be questioned either. Apart from its IR sensitivity, my M8.2 was flawless, as are my M240 and M11 currently. With IBIS, if any, the M12 should be even more functional.

Seriously?

[lct]

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5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Seriously?

Is IBIS a problem for you? Now when i say IBIS, i could say EIS as well but i don't know if it could be implemented in the M12. I have EIS in my 60mp Sigma FPL which is even smaller than the M11 but it has an electronic only shutter and this is another story.

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[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, lct said:

Is IBIS a problem for you? Now when i say IBIS, i could say EIS as well but i don't know if it could be implemented in the M12. I have EIS in my 60mp Sigma FPL which is even smaller than the M11 but it has an electronic only shutter and this is another story.

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EIS works only for video.

IBIS can improve IQ by allowing larger exposures (more light to the sensor, less noise),

[IkarusJohn]

28 minutes ago, lct said:

Is IBIS a problem for you? Now when i say IBIS, i could say EIS as well but i don't know if it could be implemented in the M12. I have EIS in my 60mp Sigma FPL which is even smaller than the M11 but it has an electronic only shutter and this is another story.

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Not at all. I have it on my X2D. 

[lct]

14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

EIS works only for video.

Do you mean EIS is off when i use my FPL for stills? Just curious.

[lct]

3 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not at all. I have it on my X2D. 

Then i did not understand your question.

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

Do you mean EIS is off when i use my FPL for stills? Just curious.

EIS has no effect when shooting stills. It works on stabilizing video by removing jitter between succeeding frames (slight movement/alignment of the frames, which typically means a slightly reduced resolution in MP).

P.S.: Leica M11 uses EIS to stabilize the live view.

Edited May 24, 2024 by SrMi

[lct]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

EIS has no effect when shooting stills. It works on stabilizing video [...]

I was just asking in practice. I can shoot at slower shutter speeds than the M11 on the FPL so i thought it was due to EIS. Am i mistaken?

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

I was just asking in practice. I can shoot at slower shutter speeds than the M11 on the FPL so i thought it was due to EIS. Am i mistaken?

No, it is not due to EIS. M11 has it as well and it does not allow for slower shutter speeds.

[Segal]

It's really hard for me to imagine what I'd want from M12 that I don't have in my M11. IBIS is probably the only thing I would really want, but so far the lack of it hasn't been a dealbreaker for me.

I imagine they'd go for incremental upgrades - a slightly better sensor, brighter screen, a bit more built-in memory, faster processor, etc.

[IkarusJohn]

Having an M10-D, there’s nothing in the M11 I want.  The USB-C charging and internal memory are nice to haves, and perhaps they will have better overall implementation in the M12, but I suspect it will go further in a direction I don’t want.

Edited May 29, 2024 by IkarusJohn

[WvE]

13 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Having an M10-D, there’s nothing in the M11 I want.  The USB-C charging and internal memory are nice to haves, and perhaps they will have better overall implementation in the M12, but I suspect it will go further in a direction I don’t want.

That's my fear as well, more mp's, whistles and bells. 

[ChasMP]

I think they should split the line in two... An all in electronic M with EVF, video and all of the other electronic camera trappings. Then have a M with optical rangefinder, something stable, basic, classic and pure that can exist in perpetuity like the MP/MA/M6. Unfortunately though, Leica like all other 'camera' companies insist on a fairly rapid product release cycle, which would make a 'perpetual' digital rangefinder model very unlikely. 

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[timo01]

Happy M10 user  

But weather sealing would be nice 

Edited June 1, 2024 by timo01

[jaapv]

On 6/1/2024 at 12:18 AM, ChasMP said:

I think they should split the line in two... An all in electronic M with EVF, video and all of the other electronic camera trappings. Then have a M with optical rangefinder, something stable, basic, classic and pure that can exist in perpetuity like the MP/MA/M6. Unfortunately though, Leica like all other 'camera' companies insist on a fairly rapid product release cycle, which would make a 'perpetual' digital rangefinder model very unlikely. 

Unfortunately the release cycle is driven by the obsolescence cycle of the electronic parts, over which Leica has very little control.