Leica M12 -- your next camera?

[o2mpx]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The latest from Leica Rumors indicates larger rear screen, perhaps with on screen buttons vs physical ones, removal of left ISO dial, unknown status on viewfinder or sensor resolution .

Assuming these will be real, will it be 60mp or 70/75? as these features alone might not be enough to drive upgrades. 

[Planetwide]

If it's a rebadged pana @25mp - it's DOA for me. IBIS and a tilt screen pls @60mp for the win.

[dkmoore]

6 hours ago, Planetwide said:

If it's a rebadged pana @25mp - it's DOA for me. IBIS and a tilt screen pls @60mp for the win.

Does this rumored camera exist in the Panasonic line?

Edited May 21, 2024 by dkmoore

[algrove]

3 hours ago, dkmoore said:

Does this rumored camera exist in the Panasonic line?

Doubt it, but Panny followers might know better. Does Panasonic even make an M mount camera today?

[Alberti]

On 5/17/2024 at 8:45 AM, SrMi said:

EVF and LCD use most of the battery, but IBIS does not so much, AFAIK.

It is hard to quantify how much power IBIS uses as it is always active. X100VI added IBIS and did not lose battery CIPA rating.

The question is then, will it be used during live-view (like in my Lumix-L)? Then is is going to be a strain on the battry. IBIS is nice, I have it and with the S5 it gives cleaner pictures in certain (un)circumstances than the M10r. Like self-assumed pre-testers like the ex-Steven said 🤐

I heard that the M11 had a built-in Leitz stapler. For me they can leave that out,

And the red dot that could be a free-to-choose a-la-carte feature, like a  Leica logo in nice handwriting on top.
More serious is the possibility for a larger .0.72 magnification than the standard that started with the M6, to accomodate 28mm. At that time I missed my M2 so much . 
I

Edited May 21, 2024 by Alberti

[Datsch]

I for one would be glad to see the back of the M10 and M11's ISO dial -- I always find it a bit too small and plasticy -- plus you have to take your eye away from the viewfinder and then use your left hand to ping the thing up with your thumbnail, turn the dial and then (officially at least) squash the thing back down again ...

Your right thumb is all ready and waiting to whizz a wheel around, as all other manufacturers already know ...

A right thumb ISO wheel would be especially handy if there will be ISO info available in the viewfinder -- those 1970s LEDs are surely due for an update for the M12 too ...

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

49 minutes ago, Alberti said:

The question is then, will it be used during live-view (like in my Lumix-L)? Then is is going to be a strain on the battry.

IBIS mechanism is always active. You can choose whether it moves to counter camera shake. There is no indication that its power consumption is relevant.

52 minutes ago, Alberti said:

IBIS is nice, I have it and with the S5 it gives cleaner pictures in certain (un)circumstances than the M10r.

It allows larger exposures when the subject's movement allows it.

 

[Alberti]

Just another thought about IBIS - you don’t have to do that in all dimensions, that means: the resulting implementation, on Piezo-crystals, can be a lot thinner and do no need to be behind the sensor.
It is not part of a phase or contrast  detecion sytem with which it needs to collaborate by feeding fake image data when the lens is static (manual). [I hope I’m clear.]

[lct]

1 hour ago, Alberti said:

More serious is the possibility for a larger .0.72 magnification than the standard that started with the M6, to accomodate 28mm.

AFAIK VF magnification was 0.72x on M2 & M6 (besides 0.58x & 0.85x variants) vs 0.68x on M8, M9 & M240 vs 0.73x on M10 & M11.

[tomasis7]

I don't know if it was a discussion about hybrid viewfinder. I didn't like what I saw in the hybrid VF of the X100 IV. How does the digital screen appear? By inserting from the other side? Or was it a transparent screen?

I like projecting small info on the optical viewfinder like a modern head-up display on the cars. A small projector is embedded there. I was fascinated by the pics posted in the Leica rumors. It would be helpful with focusing aid. 

[colint544]

The M12 is surely years away yet, but reckon it'll look something like this. Maybe without the ISO dial.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[colint544]

36 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Oh surely not years away according to the Wetzlar Chocolate Factory timeline...

Maybe not, we're possibly soon seeing the special edition M11s. I guess it was only three years between the M8 and M9, longer runs of some other digital Ms, but what do I know?

[swatch]

Why bigger rear screen?  For viewing the camera generated jpg file on rear screen is only good for checking focus accuracy and framing accuracy.  I would rather choose to transfer that jpg file to my iPhone or iPad which has bigger screen than the one on M camera . I would like to have a smaller rear screen just for camera settings and leave more space for the thumb to grab the camera for better comfort and stability.

IBIS will only be needed for photographers such as landscape / nightscape photography without using tripods.

EVF is a modern technology while OVF/RF is not only old technology but its limitations are many: focus accuracy drop for long lenses, need accessories for macro applications, no frame lines wider than 28mm.  It is time to seriously think about OVF/RF which shines for only 35mm/50mm.

M camera may be better to be divided into two sub-lines: classic line with OVF/RF and 40 megapixel sensor(M10-R), modern line with EVF and bigger than 40 megapixel sensor with IBIS(reduce the size of SL3 to form factor of M camera ).

[Smogg]

22 minutes ago, swatch said:

Why bigger rear screen?  For viewing the camera generated jpg file on rear screen is only good for checking focus accuracy and framing accuracy.  I would rather choose to transfer that jpg file to my iPhone or iPad which has bigger screen than the one on M camera . I would like to have a smaller rear screen just for camera settings and leave more space for the thumb to grab the camera for better comfort and stability.

IBIS will only be needed for photographers such as landscape / nightscape photography without using tripods.

EVF is a modern technology while OVF/RF is not only old technology but its limitations are many: focus accuracy drop for long lenses, need accessories for macro applications, no frame lines wider than 28mm.  It is time to seriously think about OVF/RF which shines for only 35mm/50mm.

M camera may be better to be divided into two sub-lines: classic line with OVF/RF and 40 megapixel sensor(M10-R), modern line with EVF and bigger than 40 megapixel sensor with IBIS(reduce the size of SL3 to form factor of M camera ).

1. With the EVF you can only focus when the aperture is wide open, and I, for example, almost never shoot wide open.

2. In EVF you cannot see a live picture, but only a film, and not of the best quality in sunny weather and a contrasting scene.

OVF does not have these shortcomings.

[evikne]

A bigger screen would just mean even more of what I hate. The screen makes the back of the camera hard and uncomfortable to hold and it takes it further away from the original analog design.

[jgeenen]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb evikne:

The screen makes the back of the camera hard and uncomfortable to hold and it takes it further away from the original analog design.

Does it really? For me, it totally depends on the implementation of the screen and the UI:

1. If all relevant functions are accessible via classical dials, the screen is just required for preview and menu configuration. A M12-S (screen) and M12-D (screen less) could be pretty much identical with the exception of digital comfort functions. Indeed a buttonless M12 could be perfectly in line with the original analog design and "bridge" between the haptic design of the 50s and the comfort requirements of the 30s. 

2. In theory the screen back is indeed harder and more uncomfortable than a leatherette type of cover. I personally find it however uncomfortable to grab the M camera by the back (so I don't need any leatherette there). Instead, I need to carefully avoid touching any of the buttons of the existing M10/M11 when in hurry.

I believe the future of the M system will always be a subject of debate and probably is within the Leica company as well: On the one hand we all love the traditional design and operational concept which makes the M camera outstanding in the current industry. On the other hand, many of us ask for more comfort or support functions that are based on electronic in camera features (from focus support to IBIS) which require menu access for setup and selection.

 

[Alberti]

No I don't want this in-build Leitz feature to connect the flow of pictures (I assume it was built in for a purpose) . . . 😥

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[evikne]

9 minutes ago, jgeenen said:

Does it really? For me, it totally depends on the implementation of the screen and the UI:

1. If all relevant functions are accessible via classical dials, the screen is just required for preview and menu configuration. A M12-S (screen) and M12-D (screen less) could be pretty much identical with the exception of digital comfort functions. Indeed a buttonless M12 could be perfectly in line with the original analog design and "bridge" between the haptic design of the 50s and the comfort requirements of the 30s. 

2. In theory the screen back is indeed harder and more uncomfortable than a leatherette type of cover. I personally find it however uncomfortable to grab the M camera by the back (so I don't need any leatherette there). Instead, I need to carefully avoid touching any of the buttons of the existing M10/M11 when in hurry.

I believe the future of the M system will always be a subject of debate and probably is within the Leica company as well: On the one hand we all love the traditional design and operational concept which makes the M camera outstanding in the current industry. On the other hand, many of us ask for more comfort or support functions that are based on electronic in camera features (from focus support to IBIS) which require menu access for setup and selection.

I am fully aware that most users want a screen on their digital M. And it seems that Leica only barely decided to make an M11-D after all (but now everything indicates that it is coming).

[jgeenen]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Smogg:

1. With the EVF you can only focus when the aperture is wide open, and I, for example, almost never shoot wide open.

2. In EVF you cannot see a live picture, but only a film, and not of the best quality in sunny weather and a contrasting scene.

OVF does not have these shortcomings.

I agree - if Leica just implements plain old EVF technology into a new M body - one of the big unique selling points would be lost. But if Leica addresses that shortcomings, the advantages of EVF (precise field of view and exposure preview, no dependency on minimum focus distances and focal lengths, support in dark surroundings) might overrule...

What do I mean?

All current EVF manual focus aid are based on contrast focus methods. Those benefit from large apertures. If a phase detect focus could be implemented (e.g. something like splitscreen that mimics the current rangefinder patch), the first shortcoming is addressed.

Faster refresh rates and more modern LCD/OLED implementations will make the second disadvantage of EVF disappear more and more. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

2 hours ago, Smogg said:

1. With the EVF you can only focus when the aperture is wide open, and I, for example, almost never shoot wide open.

It is not the first time i read this. I don't know where it comes from (not the LUF hopefully) but all my mirrorless (or Visoflex) snaps are shot at working aperture. Can be at full aperture when i work wide open but it can be at f/8 and even f/11 as well and it is true at all focal lengths including UWA. Easy to do, suffice it to use focus magnification. This way you can nail focus, you can see your DoF and you avoid focus shift issues if any. Worth a try 😎