CL and high ISO, noise and software (split-off thread)

[aksclix]

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3 minutes ago, ECohen said:

I expect 3200 to look like 200 out of the camera

Exactly!! High ISO performance is pretty basic and expected with today’s tech.. I’ve only been shooting since 15 years.. 

ISO 12800 is when most modern mirrorless cameras start to fall apart.. sometimes I am unhappy with the noise at ISO 800 in my CL.. 😑

[ruskkyle]

24 minutes ago, ECohen said:

I guess I expect too much from tech after all these years I expect 3200 to look like 200 out of the camera

Have a look at the latest backside-illuminated sensors - they will give you something closer to the performance you want.

In Leica land that’s the SL2-S

[ECohen]

Yes 12k for a system and 3 pounds of weight

I am considering it. And I guess that’s why I am on this thread Why can’t APS sensors have better tech after all they’ve been around for 20 years which is light years in computer time.

thanks guys sorry for all my complaints.

I do realize it’s me. Camera design is a business like anything else.

 

[ruskkyle]

Honestly I think the CL punches above its weight in low light. Yes, there is noise at 3200 and 6400 but nothing that cannot be fixed in two seconds with NR sliders. Pair it with an f/1.4 or 1.2 and you're good to go.

Edited November 14, 2021 by ruskkyle

[aksclix]

If a micro four thirds sensor could gain so much traction, APS-C definitely should.. I have a Sony a6600 and the compact 70-350 (105-525 in effect) this is a phenomenal compact setup for any wildlife including birds in flight!! I have had hood success with it although I haven’t quite shot any exotic colorful birds with it.. nevertheless, the gulls and the vultures came out pretty good!! I’ve seen samples of the Olympus 300mm f/4 but I wasn’t wowed by the IQ and detail.. quite a bit of smearing.. there’s no question the Sony 200-600 on an a9 outperforms the m43 setup.. 

anyway, my point is.. APS-C does have a lot to offer!! In fact, I feel it might be easier for a brand like Leica to succeed in that format because the cost becomes the most affordable in all of the Leica line ups.. the size and quality of glass will make buyers want it! Imagine a compact 400 f4 for the CL or perhaps a slightly bigger CL2 to balance the bigger lens better! 

[jaapv]

9 hours ago, lct said:

Sorry Jaap but the look of your pic above is kind of a demo of what i don't like in those softwares but this is a subjective matter obviously so again YMMV.

Better?

 

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[lct]

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57 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Better?

I'm confused it is the blurred statue i was referring to . Glad it was not this cute little girl. Noise is strong on her face but your pic was underexposed i guess. Nice pic .

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Edited November 14, 2021 by lct

[cpclee]

5 hours ago, aksclix said:

If a micro four thirds sensor could gain so much traction, APS-C definitely should.. I have a Sony a6600 and the compact 70-350 (105-525 in effect) this is a phenomenal compact setup for any wildlife including birds in flight!! I have had hood success with it although I haven’t quite shot any exotic colorful birds with it.. nevertheless, the gulls and the vultures came out pretty good!! I’ve seen samples of the Olympus 300mm f/4 but I wasn’t wowed by the IQ and detail.. quite a bit of smearing.. there’s no question the Sony 200-600 on an a9 outperforms the m43 setup.. 

anyway, my point is.. APS-C does have a lot to offer!! In fact, I feel it might be easier for a brand like Leica to succeed in that format because the cost becomes the most affordable in all of the Leica line ups.. the size and quality of glass will make buyers want it! Imagine a compact 400 f4 for the CL or perhaps a slightly bigger CL2 to balance the bigger lens better! 

Four thirds / micro four thirds, regrettably, never actually gained sufficient traction.  Olympus banked their entire digital strategy on it and have now decided it's not worth it---the conglomerate was about to sell or fold their camera business which for now has been floated as a separate entity.

20 years ago Olympus correctly observed that many photographers rarely printed larger than A4, and for that 6mp would be plenty.  Thus born the forth thirds sensor.  But consumers want what they want and eventually four thirds lost out because consumers were unimpressed with the low pixel count.  Nevermind that their Zuiko lenses were excellent and Olympus was ahead of rivals (think Leica's LT/SL lines) in using telecentric and oversized lens designs to be optically superior to traditional lenses.  Oversized designs for fourth thirds still resulted very portable lenses, and Olympus was able to make truly impressive *F2.0* zooms. 

In retrospect, I think APS-C is a better sweet spot than fourth thirds because it is so close to FF in terms of technology and image quality yet the package remains very portable.  But whether the market will accept that is another story. 

[jaapv]

No; noise was added at your request If you go back to the original you’ll  find little to no noise  

. The statue was smooth bronze so it would look what you call plasticky by itself. 

[aksclix]

40 minutes ago, cpclee said:

regrettably, never actually gained sufficient traction

I thought olympus did get sufficient attraction from the market.. their main positives being effective IBIS to go with their compact 300mm f4 and the 100-400 that honestly came very late.. they did the best they could with the m43 sensor I think.. it’s not the lack of their innovation but the limitation the sensor posed that ultimately killed them maybe.. the prices could have been a lot more modest IMO for a sensor that small.. 300mm f4 should’ve beena thousand bucks lesser IMO.. Olympus is the only brand I’ve never owned.. 

Olympus may be gone but Panasonic’s m43 is still alive and they seem vested in that product line..

At the rate mirrorless medium format market is headed, full frame might become the new APS-C in a few years! 
 

anyway, with the a6600 and 70-350 combo the package is so small and the IQ is so good that more high quality primes or even constant aperture zooms would only do some good for the APS-C’s future.. there’s been rumors about a new higher MP Sony crop sensor.. 

Leica shouldn’t pull the plug on APS-C.. they’ve built an ecosystem and there are quite a few takers for that.. just needs a little update and that’s not terribly hard! 

Edited November 14, 2021 by aksclix

[ECohen]

Is the original photo on the CL‘s highest ISO of 5000?
Then in post you are used noise reduction.

 

[jaapv]

You have me confused here. My CL goes up to 50.000. And the image was at 1600.  

[Boojay]

1 hour ago, ECohen said:

Is the original photo on the CL‘s highest ISO of 5000?
Then in post you are used noise reduction.

 

Yes as Jaapv - CL has iso limit of 50,000 .  

If you are exposing for your subject not trying to lift the shadows too much it does well. 

Example at ISO 5000 with no NR added, CL with 35 TL

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[jaapv]

I agree;I  rarely feel the need to use DeNoise.

[aksclix]

here's a random sample I shot with my CL and Sigma 105mm f/1.4 at ISO 3200, f4, 1/100s

the background noise is quite visible and below average.. 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/192111684@N06/51679574277/in/dateposted-public/

 

 

 

[aksclix]

1 hour ago, Boojay said:

Yes as Jaapv - CL has iso limit of 50,000 .  

If you are exposing for your subject not trying to lift the shadows too much it does well. 

Example at ISO 5000 with no NR added, CL with 35 TL

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This looks pretty good for ISO 5000.. surprising

[lct]

27 minutes ago, aksclix said:

here's a random sample I shot with my CL and Sigma 105mm f/1.4 at ISO 3200, f4, 1/100s

the background noise is quite visible and below average.. 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/192111684@N06/51679574277/in/dateposted-public/

This background noise looks discrete to me. At 3200 iso i find it acceptable but it is a matter of tastes obviously. As for being below average, it depends to which you compare it. The CL cannot compete re noise with my Sony A7s & A7r2 for sure but it is similar to my M240 with less banding than the latter. Underexposure is to be avoided as far as possible but the CL is not alone like that. I often do -1 EV with no harm personally. Test pic at 3200 iso below (CL + CV 35/2 @ f/2). No disturbing smearing, fine details are well rendered and i find the background noise discrete and rather pleasing. No NR as usual. All in all i find this little camera so good that i don't need a CL2 and i could well order a second body if the demise of APS-C is confirmed at Leica. YMMV.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-frMsWgQ/0/0e81369c/O/i-frMsWgQ.jpg

[aksclix]

1 hour ago, lct said:

This background noise looks discrete to me. At 3200 iso i find it acceptable but it is a matter of tastes obviously. As for being below average, it depends to which you compare it. The CL cannot compete re noise with my Sony A7s & A7r2 for sure but it is similar to my M240 with less banding than the latter. Underexposure is to be avoided as far as possible but the CL is not alone like that. I often do -1 EV with no harm personally. Test pic at 3200 iso below (CL + CV 35/2 @ f/2). No disturbing smearing, fine details are well rendered and i find the background noise discrete and rather pleasing. No NR as usual. All in all i find this little camera so good that i don't need a CL2 and i could well order a second body if the demise of APS-C is confirmed at Leica. YMMV.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-frMsWgQ/0/0e81369c/O/i-frMsWgQ.jpg

Your image looks good.. noise seems controlled.. maybe a more colorful background might reveal more I guess.. 

here’s another one with ISO 1250.. I can see fair amount of noise here too.. my point is, till 1600 the files should appear clean without any noise at all.. I was comparing against Nikon Z50, Sony a6600

Anyway, I think I maybe dragging this too much.. I AM happy with this camera.. and I WILL get a CL2 if it ever comes out 😌

https://flic.kr/p/2mJRXhN

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by aksclix

[cirke]

Why not a noise reduction on this drawing by Seurat  🙂

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Edited November 15, 2021 by cirke

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[lct]

1 hour ago, cirke said:

Why not a noise reduction on this drawing by Seurat  🙂

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Smearing due to firmwares or softwares used to be called "Seurat effects" at the time of my dear old Digilux 1. 200 let alone 400 iso were ugly due to noise and banding then. Newbies  cannot understand the chance we have with modern sensors. Just kidding. 

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