My Article on the Leitz Photographica Auction 20th November 2021

[willeica]

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My article on some of the highlights of the next Leitz Photographica Auction is here.

https://www.macfilos.com/2021/11/08/leitz-auction-goes-into-space-with-the-soviets/

A link to the full auction catalogue is here.

https://www.leitz-auction.com/auction/en/onlinecatalogue

William 

[willeica]

The Leica MP-55 sold this morning for 1 million Euros on a max estimate of 350K. Most of the prices fetched today are very high and I have seen this pattern in a number of recent auctions, including Flints in the UK on Thursday. I could not afford to purchase most of my collection today, but what I have is now mostly worth 2 to 3 times what I paid for it. 

William 

[zeitz]

I did not look through the results thoroughly, but the Tamarkin Auction did not seem to fetch the very high prices of the Wetzlar and Photographica auction.  After a quick look at the Photographica Auction results I saw amazing performance from the Soviet equipment.

[willeica]

48 minutes ago, zeitz said:

I did not look through the results thoroughly, but the Tamarkin Auction did not seem to fetch the very high prices of the Wetzlar and Photographica auction.  After a quick look at the Photographica Auction results I saw amazing performance from the Soviet equipment.

Tamarkin had some very good results, but the US seems to be a stagnant market for vintage cameras. The market there seems to be more for 'the latest and greatest', but Dan Tamarkin is continuing on in the tradition of his father, Stan. Flints Auction in the UK had very strong results on Thursday as well. I have been talking about FSU cameras and lenses for some time. There is a very lively market for rare and early FSU equipment just now, possibly coming from wealthy people in Russia. The US may eventually wake up to the fact that there is a lot of money in vintage cameras. It is possible that Null Series 105  (ownership attributed to Barnack), currently on display in the Ernst Leitz Museum, may be sold at auction next year, with a price range of €2-4 million. The current owner is in the US, so if that is sold for a big price, it might waken up the US market.

William

[UliWer]

The 1:2.8/18cm Contax Sonnar with its rifle sold for a six digit price which reflects its unique historical value. Though I fear, my hopes to find an Olympia Sonnar with direct camera coupling for a "civilian" price have vanished now.  

There seems to be a new market for some prototype or very early Soviet items with very high prices. 

The fetishism of black paint Leica cameras and lenses had another feast - which I do not understand, but it does not bother me. 220.000 € +Premium for a 1:1.4/5cm Summarit prototype also doesn't look sane.  

[willeica]

I'm worried by the sale of prototypes. I would prefer to see them in the Ernst Leitz Museum so that it has the full story to share with us. People who buy prototypes don't buy to use the items, but neither do they intend to share them with the rest of us. I agree about the black paint fetish, but you can't 'buck the markets'. The demand for Russian and Chinese items is understandable given the purchasing power that now exists in certain parts/echelons of those countries.

William 

[zeitz]

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34 minutes ago, UliWer said:

There seems to be a new market for some prototype or very early Soviet items with very high prices.

Or NEW Soviet era prototypes.  The prices are so high, it is worth the effort of very skilled machinists to make new prototypes.  I am just speculating, but the provenance given for these items is unimpressive.  At the June Photographica Auction, there was a prototype FotoSniper with a photo given as provenance.  But the poor image in the photo did not match the item at auction to my eyes.

As I understand it, Leica sold off those Leica prototypes to some guy in Thailand.  When he died, the items were auctioned throughout the world.  Isn't that what Lar Netopil's first book about?

 

[UliWer]

22 minutes ago, willeica said:

I'm worried by the sale of prototypes. I would prefer to see them in the Ernst Leitz Museum so that it has the full story to share with us.

Yes, but Leica sold them when they needed the money (and probably didn't get much for them). They would have to buy them back now for exaggerated prices. Even Leica can't have the cake and eat it.

[dkCambridgeshire]

 

Ref Photographica Auction (owned by Leica Camera AG) and Lot No. 0166 i.e. SL2 MOT SN 1443524 … the description states “Very Rare Version (1020 Pieces Produced)"  … however,  the 1020 total likely refers to the serial numbers allocated in 1975 for ‘batches' within SNs 1386601 - 1421150 (see Leica Pocket Book 8th Edition page 74). 

I’ve seen many SL2 MOT cameras offered for sale over the years … so many it’s fairly obvious that more than 1020 SL2 MOT bodies were actually assembled. Lot No. 0166 has a serial number 1443524 which is outside the 1386601- 1421150 range. My own SL2 MOT is SN 1444518 … and there are likely hundreds more tucked away in collections … plus those not in collectible condition and in use. That the "Very Rare Version”  moniker is misleading / inaccurate, is probably reflected in the hammer price … which is significantly below the pre-sale €1200-€1800 estimate. Previous Leica Forum thread https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/146093-today-acquired-a-leicaflex-sl2-mot/#comments.   also refers to SL2 MOT production numbers. I always take auctioneers' descriptions 'with a pinch of salt'  ... especially when they mention 'not tested'  

 

[willeica]

34 minutes ago, zeitz said:

Or NEW Soviet era prototypes.  The prices are so high, it is worth the effort of very skilled machinists to make new prototypes.  

I agree.This is in line with market theory about 'supernormal ' profits drawing in 'players'. It is up to sellers (and indeed serious buyers) to check out provenance. One bad mistake on a high profile item could ruin the reputation of an auction house. 

15 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Yes, but Leica sold them when they needed the money (and probably didn't get much for them). They would have to buy them back now for exaggerated prices. Even Leica can't have the cake and eat it.

It is, therefore, somewhat ironic that an auction house owned by Leica is now selling these items again. Even the successful company of today could not afford to buy back all of the prototypes, but it would be nice to see some of the items going back to Wetzlar. I said earlier that I could not afford to replicate my own collection today, which is probably good for the value of my collection. In a way, I am in the same position as the company. 

What cannot be denied is that the market is very buoyant right now and that there is a high level of demand for vintage cameras, lenses and accessories. As for doubts about authenticity, my collection does not consist totally of fully authenticated items. I have no doubts about most of what I have, but most collectors will have some items which have a touch of 'is it or isn't it' about them. The greater the value of the items, the more significant this can become. Even access to the Leica Archives often does not answer all questions. Dunk's point above about questions in relation serial number lists is well made.

William 

 

[UliWer]

33 minutes ago, willeica said:

It is, therefore, somewhat ironic that an auction house owned by Leica is now selling these items again.

Yes, and earns some money from the auction. I followed the auction live online and understood that Dr. Kaufmann was present and even placed a bid on a certain item (though I might be wrong on this). 

[zeitz]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

One bad mistake on a high profile item could ruin the reputation of an auction house. 

I appreciate the effort Lars Netopil and Jo Geier make by stating the known provenance of their lots in the Wetzlar Auction catalog descriptions.  When I write to Jo about details related to his descriptions, he seems genuinely interested in having the updated information.  I never got that feeling from Peter Coeln.  However, after I won an odd item from one of his auctions, his staff did, after the fact, provide the known provenance to me.

[willeica]

8 hours ago, UliWer said:

Yes, and earns some money from the auction. I followed the auction live online and understood that Dr. Kaufmann was present and even placed a bid on a certain item (though I might be wrong on this). 

Dr Kaufmann told me that he would be attending, but I could not see him on the video feed.

 

7 hours ago, zeitz said:

I appreciate the effort Lars Netopil and Jo Geier make by stating the known provenance of their lots in the Wetzlar Auction catalog descriptions.  When I write to Jo about details related to his descriptions, he seems genuinely interested in having the updated information.  I never got that feeling from Peter Coeln.  However, after I won an odd item from one of his auctions, his staff did, after the fact, provide the known provenance to me.

Lars also told me that he would be attending, but I could not see him on the video feed. The auction team in Vienna have told me that they have online access to the Leica Archives in Wetzlar. The Archives do not contain everything that might have happened to a camera during its life and, of course, they do not contain details about other makes. Getting provenance on FSU cameras is difficult, but the Soviet Cams site is useful to a degree. 

William

[luigi bertolotti]

11 hours ago, UliWer said:

The 1:2.8/18cm Contax Sonnar with its rifle sold for a six digit price which reflects its unique historical value. Though I fear, my hopes to find an Olympia Sonnar with direct camera coupling for a "civilian" price have vanished now.  

 

A dream of mine, too... which will remain like this... 🤥 ... it would be such a fine companion for my 180 2,8 Contarex... (time to time, I'm tempted by the Flektoscop version, which is more reasonably priced, but I doubt if there's a not destructive way to turn it in a Viso-usable item (*)... 🙄) . 

(*) in theory a Flextoscop+my Contax to M adapter ought to accomodate right a Flexktoscop... but resulting in a very odd combo to use, and am even not completely sure it would fit on a M)

Edited November 21, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[willeica]

25 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

A dream of mine, too... which will remain like this... 🤥 ... it would be such a fine companion for my 180 2,8 Contarex... (time to time, I'm tempted by the Flektoscop version, which is more reasonably priced, but I doubt if there's a not destructive way to turn it in a Viso-usable item (*)... 🙄) . 

(*) in theory a Flextoscop+my Contax to M adapter ought to accomodate right a Flexktoscop... but resulting in a very odd combo to use, and am even not completely sure it would fit on a M)

Somebody mentioned that the Olympia lens has an aperture which is linked to the focus distance. Do you know if this is true?

William 

[zeitz]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

Somebody mentioned that the Olympia lens has an aperture which is linked to the focus distance. Do you know if this is true?

Definitely false.  I checked pre-war, first post-war and second post-war versions spanning 1938 to 1962 serial numbers.

[Rona!d]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb willeica:

It is, therefore, somewhat ironic that an auction house owned by Leica is now selling these items again.

At least they made profit twice. First as seller of the items, second as auction house. This happens with classic cars and art as well. Only needs a generation change of the collectors.

[luigi bertolotti]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

Somebody mentioned that the Olympia lens has an aperture which is linked to the focus distance. Do you know if this is true?

William 

Never Heard of such an odd 

 coupling

 

[zeitz]

2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

I doubt if there's a not destructive way to turn it in a Viso-usable item (*)

The Flektoskop Olympia Sonnar can be fitted to Visoflex I or Visoflex II/III with a relatively simple adapter because the registration of the Flektoskop lenses is 114.7mm.  The registration of Flektometer lenses is 100mm.  Carl Zeiss Jena did make a few of these; I have two slightly different ones.  When I first saw them on e-bay, I did not think the adapter was original to the lens; but with the lens and adapter in hand, the finishes are absolutely identical on both pieces.  I also have one that was made a nicely skilled machinist.  Luigi, or anyone else, if you would like a dimensioned sketch, I will send you one.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[zeitz]

I should have added that Olympia Sonnars for this period are all Flektoskop or Flektometer lenses with an adapter.  If you bought a Praktica, Praktina or Exakta lens from this period, the adapter is easily unscrewed, and the lens can be used on Flektoskop or Flektometer, depending on the version.