My Article on the Leitz Photographica Auction 20th November 2021

[willeica]

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4 hours ago, zeitz said:

Definitely false.  I checked pre-war, first post-war and second post-war versions spanning 1938 to 1962 serial numbers.

 

4 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Never Heard of such an odd 

 coupling

 

Thanks to you both, I had doubts myself .

4 hours ago, Rona!d said:

At least they made profit twice. First as seller of the items, second as auction house. This happens with classic cars and art as well. Only needs a generation change of the collectors.

It is the same with all second hand markets. I often wonder how many people have owned some of the items in my collection. I have several items that have appeared at auctions a number of times, which means that they have generated fees several times. While the auctioneer's fees don't add value, the auctions themselves do this by giving collectors an opportunity to create value in their collections. All very circular, but it is a system that works by and large. 

William

[levegh]

William,

While I can understand somebody putting something of uncertain or unknown value into an auction to establish value by buying it back in, this often needs the collusion of the auctioneer who will ‘sell’ to a name made up for the transaction. If the same thing happens several consecutive times over a period of a few years, a value has not been established but has been created. To say that  the “system works by and large” is not true for a real purchaser a few months or years later. It does, however, work for the original vendor or vendors and for sale rooms in general. It also works for those who amass large collections as an investment.

Stuart

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[zeitz]

One can go to a casino to risk one's money; or one can get involved in collectibles to risk one's money.  There are only a very few stores that occasionally have anything of interest to me.  It would be a great loss to me and my collecting instinct if e-bay ceased to exist or if the Photographica, Wetzlar and Tamarkin auction houses closed.  I accept the nature of these businesses.

[UliWer]

8 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

(*) in theory a Flextoscop+my Contax to M adapter ought to accomodate right a Flexktoscop... but resulting in a very odd combo to use, and am even not completely sure it would fit on a M)

Yes, you can attach an adapter for the M to the Flektoskop and so use the Sonnar on the M (with or without EVF,  optically the Flectoscope is no worse than the Visoflex). Though the Flektoskop is an extremely cumbersome monster, no comparison to the Ploot or Visoflex. The combination weighs about 2 kilo, so my  motivation to use it is rather low. You can easily unscrew the lens from the Flektoskop, and I was looking for an adapter to put it on the bellows. But it would need approx 78mm with a thread pitch of 0.5mm, whilst the bellows needs a 0.75mm pitch. I am usure, wether something like this exists.

Have you been lucky with lot #128? It's probably easier to carry. 

 

8 hours ago, willeica said:

Somebody mentioned that the Olympia lens has an aperture which is linked to the focus distance. Do you know if this is true?

Though the 18cm Sonnar is no Karbe lens, I used it only fully opened yet...,  but now I looked through it stopped to f/8 and focussed: no, the aperture does not change. Though like all Zeiss lenses for the contax, there are no stops on the aperture ring and it rotates as you focus it, so you easily change the aperture involuntarily when you focus.

[UliWer]

6 hours ago, zeitz said:

The Flektoskop Olympia Sonnar can be fitted to Visoflex I or Visoflex II/III with a relatively simple adapter because the registration of the Flektoskop lenses is 114.7mm.  The registration of Flektometer lenses is 100mm.  Carl Zeiss Jena did make a few of these; I have two slightly different ones.  When I first saw them on e-bay, I did not think the adapter was original to the lens; but with the lens and adapter in hand, the finishes are absolutely identical on both pieces.  I also have one that was made a nicely skilled machinist.  Luigi, or anyone else, if you would like a dimensioned sketch, I will send you one.

This sounds very interesting. I'll start a new thread in the "Historica" subforum about this topic.

[willeica]

3 hours ago, levegh said:

William,

While I can understand somebody putting something of uncertain or unknown value into an auction to establish value by buying it back in, this often needs the collusion of the auctioneer who will ‘sell’ to a name made up for the transaction. If the same thing happens several consecutive times over a period of a few years, a value has not been established but has been created. To say that  the “system works by and large” is not true for a real purchaser a few months or years later. It does, however, work for the original vendor or vendors and for sale rooms in general. It also works for those who amass large collections as an investment.

Stuart

I was not talking about any 'funny' stuff. In saying that the system works, I was talking about providing a facility in which items can be bought and sold, thus determining values. It is the same for any type of auction eg cars, paintings, photographs, books etc . 'Established' is the term I would use rather than 'created' as the latter implies some form of manipulation. There is a lot of luck, as well as knowledge and skill, involved in the value side of things. I have never sold any of the items in my collection and I have not bought any of it based on the possibility of value appreciation. I can, however, observe what has happened to that value by reference to subsequent auctions. For people who buy for value purposes only there is an element of gambling, as with bookies or bitcoin. I never begrudge other people's gains . Last year I gave advice for no charge or fee to someone on this forum who had bought a camera for $10 which enabled him to achieve a value of €40,000 at auction. I was delighted for the guy. 

 

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

 

 

Though the 18cm Sonnar is no Karbe lens, I used it only fully opened yet...,  but now I looked through it stopped to f/8 and focussed: no, the aperture does not change. Though like all Zeiss lenses for the contax, there are no stops on the aperture ring and it rotates as you focus it, so you easily change the aperture involuntarily when you focus.

When you say the aperture rotates when the lens is focussed are you talking about the lens barrel or just the aperture ring mechanism ? I presume it is the former if the aperture does not change.

William 

[UliWer]

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Yes, the whole front part of the lens rotates (straight guide).

[PG Black nickel]

To come back to the prices, I have the impression that depending on the notoriety of the auction house, the prices are higher for the same camera...Would the MP have reached this price if it had been sold in a small auction house in the provinces? 
These big auction houses have an international audience, it's also true for Christie's, Sotheby's.... where the prices reach the top, so if you want to sell your equipment at a high price, choose your auction house carefully...!

 

[willeica]

1 hour ago, PG Black nickel said:

To come back to the prices, I have the impression that depending on the notoriety of the auction house, the prices are higher for the same camera...Would the MP have reached this price if it had been sold in a small auction house in the provinces? 
These big auction houses have an international audience, it's also true for Christie's, Sotheby's.... where the prices reach the top, so if you want to sell your equipment at a high price, choose your auction house carefully...!

 

Could be true, but the price really depends on the purchasers. The larger auction houses tend to attract the buyers with the most money. The MP sale price was clearly the result of a battle between 2 or more very wealthy bidders. However, prices are rising all around as recent results from Tamarkin, Flints, LP and others indicate. You are right about picking an auction house with good knowledge and good buyer connections if you are selling. Also the auction house may be prepared to negotiate on seller's fees.

William

[nitroplait]

10 minutes ago, willeica said:

Could be true, but the price really depends on the purchasers. The larger auction houses tend to attract the buyers with the most money. The MP sale price was clearly the result of a battle between 2 or more very wealthy bidders. However, prices are rising all around as recent results from Tamarkin, Flints, LP and others indicate. You are right about picking an auction house with good knowledge and good buyer connections if you are selling. Also the auction house may be prepared to negotiate on seller's fees.

William

Good point.

It is worth looking at the bidding history to see when "the room" stopped bidding and when the bidding was left to the last two. What takes a given item to a record high may be a coincidence of emotional/personal circumstanced on the given day. Thus, the importance to view at the results more broadly when looking for tendencies.

In my experience (although not from photographica), if you have an item that would work in favour of the auction house's marketing - such as an object that would make a good headline - then you should definitely negotiate a discount on the seller's fees.

I have heard, but not personally experienced, that buyers well-known to the auction house or bidders expressing intentions on bidding on high profile object, may pre-negotiate a buyer's fee reduction.

As I have expressed elsewhere, I don't particularly like the dynamics of auctions, partly because of the lack of transparency regarding identity of buyer/seller, and the not unusual undisclosed buy-back activity that may happen if the auction house is caught in making too creative attributions.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, nitroplait said:

I have heard, but not personally experienced, that buyers well-known to the auction house or bidders expressing intentions on bidding on high profile object, may pre-negotiate a buyer's fee reduction.

I have got an offer of buyer and seller fee reductions for LHSA (where I am VP /Treasurer) members from Leitz Auction. We hope to implement it before next June's auction in Wetzlar. It will need some identification of buyers/sellers as actual members, of course. I will give the details on a post here when it is set up.

 

1 hour ago, nitroplait said:

 

As I have expressed elsewhere, I don't particularly like the dynamics of auctions, partly because of the lack of transparency regarding identity of buyer/seller, and the not unusual undisclosed buy-back activity that may happen if the auction house is caught in making too creative attributions.

There is always a balance to be struck between transparency and protecting client identity, of course. 

William 

[Herr Barnack]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:53 AM, willeica said:

The Leica MP-55 sold this morning for 1 million Euros on a max estimate of 350K. Most of the prices fetched today are very high and I have seen this pattern in a number of recent auctions, including Flints in the UK on Thursday. I could not afford to purchase most of my collection today, but what I have is now mostly worth 2 to 3 times what I paid for it. 

William 

Same here - and I have only newer M cameras and lenses, except for my M4-P.  An example - I paid $2000 USD for a new 90 Summicron APO; the same lens (new) now sells for $5200 USD.  The company that sells me my camera insurance coverage couldn't be happier.  

The only exception is my M-P 240 Safari kit, which is worth around $3.50 USD these days.  🙄

Edited November 22, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[willeica]

Just now, Herr Barnack said:

Same here - and I have only newer M cameras and lenses, except for my M4-P.  An example - I paid $2000 USD for a new 90 Summicron APO; the same lens now sells for $5000 USD.  The company that sells me my camera insurance coverage couldn't be happier.  

The only exception is my M-P 240 Safari kit, which is worth around $4 USD these days.  🙄

I saw a lens of a type that I bought from a London dealer for 1200 Sterling in 2016 selling for 4000 Sterling on his website today. That says it all.

William