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SL2 Monochrom on the horizon.


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On 5/5/2022 at 3:55 PM, beewee said:

I’m very doubtful the 47MP sensor is BSI...

Yup, it's not, it's FSI. But FSI sensors got very, very good before the jump.

If anyone has used multiple FSI cameras and moved to multiple BSI cameras, the difference is unmistakable. Q2/SL2/M10-R (FSI) to SL2-S/M11 (BSI). GFX 50S (FSI) to 100S (BSI). All these are good cameras, but the difference in file malleability in post is striking between FSI and BSI, particularly with regard to highlight recovery.

Edited by hdmesa
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On 5/5/2022 at 10:49 AM, BernardC said:

I don't think that BSI was an internet meme yet when the 47MP came-out. TowerJazz mentions the tech on their web, but I doubt that Leica felt the need to underline this until lately. It reminds me of "fuel injected," "overhead cam," and "turbo" decals on fossil-fuel cars. They aren't differentiators because they are ubiquitous.

Leica is guilty of many things in their marketing, but being buzzword-heavy is not one. They tend to lean more toward myth-making. (Who cares if they made a camera that was used 60 years ago by a famous photographer, really?).

 

Stefan Daniel articulated 4 specific improvements in the M0-R (and M10 Monochrom) sensor compared to the prior M10 sensors.  See at about the 20 minute mark in the following interview.  He doesn't use the term BSI, but he does discuss the greater sensor area devoted to the pixels versus supporting electronics (which is one of the benefits of a BSI approach, as I understand it).  Not the SL2, but interesting nonetheless.

 

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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For me, a Monochrom SL would be a delight if it exists. It wouldn't be a temptation because I'm not in the phase where I want it. But it would be a lovely thing that Leica can do for us 😉 It sort of completes a photographic expanse what what Leica means for photographers.

I think that sends a distinct message. It would be once-a-decade I will buy a monochrome SL. It's like a specialised tool (SL = pro vs QM = casual)

Not sure if anyone can make sense of that 😆 I'm afraid I will always think of the SL system a professional tool that I love rather than a hobby. 

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We might still be surprised by an SL Monochrom being based off something other than the SL2 sensor.

I'd buy any of them:

  • SL2-S Monochrom – Imagine the high-ISO capability of a 24mp BSI monochrome sensor!
  • SL2-R Monochrom – monochrome version of the 60mp M11 sensor to be followed by the color SL2-R (while Leica tries to get its PDAF act together for the SL3)
  • SL2 Monochrom – what we expect, which would still be awesome considering it will probably combine the higher resolution of the Q2M with the slightly better high-ISO capability of the M10M. It might even surpass the M10M for high ISO due to better processor and thermal management.
Edited by hdmesa
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I raised the question a while back in the CL section if there would be any interest in a CL Monochrom. From the few that replied I would say the answer was, "No".  I still would like to see Leica produce one. I have an SL-2 but rarely use it.  It's just too big, not a big as my Nikon D850, but big and complicated. I use mostly my M-10 and my type 246 mono. As I get older I find I love simple more and more. I began with a iiif or iiig (I can't remember) in 1964 and loved its size and simplicity.  So would I leap for a SL-2 Mono?  No.  Would I jump for a CL mono? Indeed I would. So, we all have our dreams and Leica has its bottom line and need we guess which one shall win? 

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  • 1 month later...

The mass market cannot come up with anything that approaches the aesthetics of Leica monochrome cameras.  Leica must be aware of the legacy that this has been creating.  The images of Eisenstadt and Bernhardt (and many other great Leica shooters) are on black and white film.  The greatest images of the twenty-first century will be on Leica monochrome sensors.  

I, personally, would like to have an SL monochrome.  I don't mind swapping the extra size for the functional advantages over the M body.  This mode of photographic instrument should not need to be so compact.

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12 hours ago, TiDoc said:

 The greatest images of the twenty-first century will be on Leica monochrome sensors.

The brand of camera/sensor type has very little to do with the greatness of an image. That’s down to who’s taking it.

But I’d still love to see an SL2/3 Mono

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  • 1 month later...

I agree that the instrument has little to do with the importance of the image.   As someone who has sustained an interest in painting as well as photography, I've found it amusing that so much is made of photography technology.  I've always insisted that we do not occupy ourselves with the type of brush used by a great master, yet I see so many people spend tens of thousands of dollars to insure that their photos will be "great."    

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  • 3 weeks later...
3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

The no-longer-with-us Steven told me via IG a while back: no monochrome SL. SL3 is next.

Steven seemed to be very well informed - not sure where the info came from, but he was invariably right.  I miss his contributions.  Someone please remind me why was he banned?

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7 hours ago, TiDoc said:

There's a new discount on the SL bodies.   Is that an indication that the SL Monochrom is expected soon?

More likely that an SL3 is on the horizon, or much more likely that they need to move some inventory that is sittting.

Edited by trickness
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7 hours ago, trickness said:

More likely that an SL3 is on the horizon, or much more likely that they need to move some inventory that is sittting.

I am parting ways with my SL2. I carried it around with 2 lenses on a recent city trip. It felt a bit like a drag, or perhaps I missed some inspiration. Resale value is reasonably good, so not losing $$. Sold off the Sigma 14-24 DG lens along the way. Sitting on the APO Summicron SL 50 and 90mm respectively, hesitating to sell them for the time being, wondering if that SL3 might turn out lighter (main priority) and perhaps in a wee bit smaller package, overall.

Used to shoot M for 10 years, exclusively pre-SL. I start to realize that by moving on to the SL system, while I like using it, the 'inspirational' factor of owning/using the M, which made all the difference to me and the end results aka photos, was largely gone. Add the additional bulk, and I admit that I never fully bonded with it. Ended up leaving it at home most of the time. Yes, grip amazing, viewfinder amazing, lenses amazing, but big, heavy, ISO fine, AF fine enough, just. Photo bag value north of some people's used cars (a fact that never bothered me the slightest carrying 2 M-bodies, lenses attached, and 2 additional lenses in bag, just to point that out).

Edited by markforce
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3 hours ago, markforce said:

I am parting ways with my SL2. I carried it around with 2 lenses on a recent city trip. It felt a bit like a drag, or perhaps I missed some inspiration. Resale value is reasonably good, so not losing $$. Sold off the Sigma 14-24 DG lens along the way. Sitting on the APO Summicron SL 50 and 90mm respectively, hesitating to sell them for the time being, wondering if that SL3 might turn out lighter (main priority) and perhaps in a wee bit smaller package, overall.

Used to shoot M for 10 years, exclusively pre-SL. I start to realize that by moving on to the SL system, while I like using it, the 'inspirational' factor of owning/using the M, which made all the difference to me and the end results aka photos, was largely gone. Add the additional bulk, and I admit that I never fully bonded with it. Ended up leaving it at home most of the time. Yes, grip amazing, viewfinder amazing, lenses amazing, but big, heavy, ISO fine, AF fine enough, just. Photo bag value north of some people's used cars (a fact that never bothered me the slightest carrying 2 M-bodies, lenses attached, and 2 additional lenses in bag, just to point that out).

I use the SL2 very extensively for street shooting, mostly with the 50 Lux M. I routinely get shots that I would never be able to get with an M body cameras because of the EVF & Hybrid shutter. Obviously you could mount an EVF to the M but I find it patently ridiculous to pay the premium to own a rangefinder and then look at the back screen or a crappy bolt on EVF that costs $600 to compose, instead of leaning into the strength of what a rangefinder does best.

The obvious answer is to have whatever tool or tools get the job done for you but I think all this complaining about how big the SL2 is is overstated. I’d love a mono version but I doubt it’s going to happen - more likely the SL3 will have a BSI 60 megapixel sensor, tilt screen, and weigh slightly less than the SL2.

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40 minutes ago, trickness said:

The obvious answer is to have whatever tool or tools get the job done for you but I think all this complaining about how big the SL2 is is overstated.

Yea, I'd have to agree. 

When I hold my SL2 with M lens mounted in one hand, and M10 with lens on the other hand, the difference is not significant to me. I still love my M10 more, but it's not the weight, and when I need a swiss army knife, the SL2 is the better answer. 

If I were the type to use a grip or a visoflex on an M I'd consider ditching it completely for the SL2 - because at that point the size/weight thing isn't even a rational argument anymore if you're using M glass. Sure the dedicated L lenses are bigger but that's only if you want AF.

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1 hour ago, pgh said:

Yea, I'd have to agree. 

When I hold my SL2 with M lens mounted in one hand, and M10 with lens on the other hand, the difference is not significant to me. I still love my M10 more, but it's not the weight, and when I need a swiss army knife, the SL2 is the better answer. 

If I were the type to use a grip or a visoflex on an M I'd consider ditching it completely for the SL2 - because at that point the size/weight thing isn't even a rational argument anymore if you're using M glass. Sure the dedicated L lenses are bigger but that's only if you want AF.

I don't disagree with either of the two perspectives. Size is a lesser issue, but weight started to bother me. Indeed, my previous M10 with the 90m Cron pre-Asph didn't feel much different in the bag, size-wise. Plus the grip on the SL is nice. Now, one of the main drivers for the system change was the AF that I wanted to (re-) introduce. So in I went with the two SL Summicrons. Those on the SL2 make for a noticeably heavier combo than my previous M-stuff. I do not own any M-lenses anymore, so that potentially alternative avenue isn't feasible.

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32 minutes ago, markforce said:

I don't disagree with either of the two perspectives. Size is a lesser issue, but weight started to bother me. Indeed, my previous M10 with the 90m Cron pre-Asph didn't feel much different in the bag, size-wise. Plus the grip on the SL is nice. Now, one of the main drivers for the system change was the AF that I wanted to (re-) introduce. So in I went with the two SL Summicrons. Those on the SL2 make for a noticeably heavier combo than my previous M-stuff. I do not own any M-lenses anymore, so that potentially alternative avenue isn't feasible.

I have SL glass (superb!) and I use it for specific work, which is almost never street photography. That’s always M glass on the SL2.

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53 minutes ago, markforce said:

I don't disagree with either of the two perspectives. Size is a lesser issue, but weight started to bother me. Indeed, my previous M10 with the 90m Cron pre-Asph didn't feel much different in the bag, size-wise. Plus the grip on the SL is nice. Now, one of the main drivers for the system change was the AF that I wanted to (re-) introduce. So in I went with the two SL Summicrons. Those on the SL2 make for a noticeably heavier combo than my previous M-stuff. I do not own any M-lenses anymore, so that potentially alternative avenue isn't feasible.

I would suggest picking up a used M 50mm Summicron, and a M 90mm Elmarit/Summarit, plus an M-L adapter. The two lenses are excellent and will mimic your current set up. They are a joy to use on the SL2. If you buy an M, EVF and grip, it will weigh almost the same as the SL2...

Edited by Planetwide
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I would be shocked if a SL mono comes. The whole line is oriented toward productivity, a mono camera is somewhat of a romantic concept for enthusiasts (ideal for M clientele to sell as second bodies). I guess they’re struggling with SL sales numbers as is, another niche product will not improve that.

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