I wish Leica had a 40mm frame line

[kivis]

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I wish Leica had a 40mm frame line. I love being able to see what's not in my frame when using the 50mm frame on a .72 VF. The 35mm frame is just too stretched out that I can really anticipate a scene. I think a 40mm frame would be perfect. But I am just dreaming. An .85 VF would solve this as ideal with a 50mm frame, but alas I have an M-A so that ain't happening.

[plaidshirts]

Have you ever tried the CL? It's the only Leica with a 40mm frameline that I know of.

I used to have one with a 40mm Summicron-C but the meter died and found it a little too small.

Edited March 25, 2021 by plaidshirts

[kivis]

8 minutes ago, plaidshirts said:

Have you ever tried the CL? It's the only Leica with a 40mm frameline that I know of.

I used to have one with a 40mm Summicron-C but the meter died and found it a little too small.

Very interesting. I forgot about that little jewel.

[UliWer]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb kivis:

I love being able to see what's not in my frame when using the 50mm frame on a .72 VF.

Well, the normal rangefinder of an M clearly shows a lot outside the frame for 50mm, so you could guess the field of 40mm. 

To expect a frame for 40mm in a Leica M seems to be unrealistic, since there never has been a 40mm lens for the M or for for screwmount. The 40mm C-Summicron was for the CL and just a compromise between the usual 50 or 35mm for the M. Voigtländer has offered a few 40mm and they still only trigger the 50mm frames, even though 35mm would be closer. 

[kivis]

I had a Voigtlander R3M. It had a single 40mm frameline. Nice rig, but no Leica.

Edited March 25, 2021 by kivis

[Ko.Fe.]

Leica has 40mm framelines in every camera starting from M4-P.  They squeezed 35 mm framelines to accommodate 28 mm framelines. As result 35mm framelines became too narrow for 35mm lens, but totally fine with 40mm lenses.

I discovered it with M-E 220. Googled it and got 40mm Minolta Rokkor CLE lens. Never liked it handling and nothing special rendering. But framing was great with 35mm framelines once I find how to file it properly from useless 50mm tooth.   

[Dennis]

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51 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Leica has 40mm framelines in every camera starting from M4-P.  They squeezed 35 mm framelines to accommodate 28 mm framelines. As result 35mm framelines became too narrow for 35mm lens, but totally fine with 40mm lenses.

I discovered it with M-E 220. Googled it and got 40mm Minolta Rokkor CLE lens. Never liked it handling and nothing special rendering. But framing was great with 35mm framelines once I find how to file it properly from useless 50mm tooth.   

wow

Squeezed frame lines sounds amazing 😆

But if they become even a 38 or 39, it's always better and more accurate than a 35 

[250swb]

What's wrong with the Voigtlander, it's a camera, it takes pictures?

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

15 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Leica has 40mm framelines in every camera starting from M4-P.  They squeezed 35 mm framelines to accommodate 28 mm framelines. As result 35mm framelines became too narrow for 35mm lens, but totally fine with 40mm lenses.

I discovered it with M-E 220. Googled it and got 40mm Minolta Rokkor CLE lens. Never liked it handling and nothing special rendering. But framing was great with 35mm framelines once I find how to file it properly from useless 50mm tooth.   

Yes, and the 50mm frame line is more like 60mm on an M4-P+++, at least shooting distances most people use.  Ha, ha, back in the day, Leica justified it by claiming with slides you lose a bit anyway to the holder.  This is a big reason I prefer the older M's for film photography.  Rangefinder framing is inaccurate on the best of days, so every little bit helps.

Edited March 26, 2021 by TheBestSLIsALeicaflex

[Pyrogallol]

The meter on my CL only works when it feels like it and the rangefinder has faded away. But otherwise it works ok, just scale focus. The whole finder area outside the 40mm frame is about right for a 35mm lens.

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Edited March 26, 2021 by Pyrogallol

[andym91]

A vastly underrated camera.

40 mm just works and on a CL beats many other M‘s hands down, and I have all of them except the M5.

go for it

andy

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[Henry Fool]

Use a Voigtlander 40mm viewfinder on the hot-shoe?

[Gobert]

On 4/1/2021 at 11:24 PM, andym91 said:

A vastly underrated camera.

40 mm just works and on a CL beats many other M‘s hands down, and I have all of them except the M5.

go for it

andy

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Underrated? I don’t think so if you look at the prices.

[jankap]

5 minutes ago, Henry Fool said:

Use a Voigtlander 40mm viewfinder on the hot-shoe?

No red dot.

[TommyPlouffe]

I use a 40mm f2 on my M2 with the 35mm frame lines as it's in reality 38mm frame lines. It's perfect for when I want something right at the edge of the frame. Just like any lens on a viewfinder, I need to keep in mind that the frame will be shifted slightly up and a bit more to the right when I want to frame something that is up close, due to the parallax. (Something that I didn't think of often when using my 35mm lens as it's very generous with the edges of the frame)

As far as I'm aware the M2, M4, M4-2, M4-P, M6, M7, MP and MA (x0.72) all have the same issue when it comes to frame lines being slightly cropped in.

I know that the frame lines of the M240 and newer models have much more accurate frame lines though (excluding newer MP and MA).

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Tommy,

Welcome to the Forum.

If you look thru the range/viewfinder window while you are focusing you will notice that the frame lines & rangefinder patches move from the top left of the image area to the bottom right corner when you are focusing from further away to somewhere closer. This is the mechanism correcting for parallax for you.

If your M2 is displaying the 35mm frame lines then your 40mm Summicron should be capturing less on the negative than you see in the range/viewfinder frame lines.

On the other hand: 40mm Summicrons, unless they have been altered, generally key the 50mm frame lines in "M" cameras. This means the lens would capture more on the film than you see in the 50mm frame lines in the range/viewfinder window.

 Some 40mm Summicrons have been altered to key the 35mm frame lines.

Enjoy your camera & lens.

Best Regards,

Michael

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, TommyPlouffe said:

I use a 40mm f2 on my M2 with the 35mm frame lines as it's in reality 38mm frame lines. It's perfect for when I want something right at the edge of the frame. Just like any lens on a viewfinder, I need to keep in mind that the frame will be shifted slightly up and a bit more to the right when I want to frame something that is up close, due to the parallax. (Something that I didn't think of often when using my 35mm lens as it's very generous with the edges of the frame)

As far as I'm aware the M2, M4, M4-2, M4-P, M6, M7, MP and MA (x0.72) all have the same issue when it comes to frame lines being slightly cropped in.

I know that the frame lines of the M240 and newer models have much more accurate frame lines though (excluding newer MP and MA).

This is a rather misleading oversimplification. The physics behind the rangefinder principle are rather more complicated.

To begin with, the nominal focal length of a lens is almost never the real focal length. Many 50 mm lenses are something like 51-53 mm for instance, and the precise value will vary per individual lens. Leica used to mark the precise focal length on the barrel. The focal length of a lens is defined at infinity.

But let us stick to the nominal focal lengths for this discussion.
To begin with, there is the concept of Bildfeldschwund.  As you focus closer, the angle of view of the lens will grow more narrow as the lens (i.e. virtual focal length) grows longer. For this reason Leica has made the framelines precise at close focusing distance, 1 m - on some models 2 m but that is another story(*). That means that the framelines will be too narrow at longer distances - at 3 m add one frameline width, at infinity two frameline widths to maintain accuracy. Lenses with internal focusing behave differently, which is one of the reasons that rangefinder lenses will focus by moving the optical cell.

Then we have parallax. As the viewfinder window is not in the optical axis of the lens, there will be a parallax shift in the observed scene. Therefore the camera will shift the framelines diagonally as you turn the focus ring. But! this shift can only be correct in the plane of focus. Everything in front and behind that plane will exhibit a shifted framing. Sometimes objects will be hidden in the viewfinder but appear on the image through this effect, or the other way around; the subject will be framed correctly, but the fore- and background not.

So, as you see, this is not an issue but the laws of optics and perspective impacting the basic concept of a rangefinder system, and understanding the principles will make it perfectly precise.

 

(*) Film Ms and the M8/M9 have the framelines 100% precise at the closest focusing distance; this will ensure that the photographer will never cut anything off at the closest distance. Later models are exact at 2m. This makes the framing closer at longer distances, but has the danger of framing too tightly at 1 m.

I attach a screenshot of the M3 manual which addresses this point.

 

 

 

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[52K]

On 5/1/2021 at 1:36 AM, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Tommy,

Welcome to the Forum.

If you look thru the range/viewfinder window while you are focusing you will notice that the frame lines & rangefinder patches move from the top left of the image area to the bottom right corner when you are focusing from further away to somewhere closer. This is the mechanism correcting for parallax for you.

If your M2 is displaying the 35mm frame lines then your 40mm Summicron should be capturing less on the negative than you see in the range/viewfinder frame lines.

On the other hand: 40mm Summicrons, unless they have been altered, generally key the 50mm frame lines in "M" cameras. This means the lens would capture more on the film than you see in the 50mm frame lines in the range/viewfinder window.

 Some 40mm Summicrons have been altered to key the 35mm frame lines.

Enjoy your camera & lens.

Best Regards,

Michael

I stumbled on a 40mm summicron from a CL by accident which I now use almost permanently on my Leica M4. It's a very underrated lens and works brilliantly. It's also incredibly small, light and inexpensive but still an F2 summicron. I don't use it on my digital M's because I have better lenses on them, but I have tried it on my M10-D and it works a treat and is super sharp. As mentioned by Michael, mine is modified to key the 35mm frame lines instead of the 50mm ones. I did this myself with a needle file. I have never had an issue with it not being spot on with the frame lines and have had some great photos. I also picked up 'Leica Master Shot' awards with it from LFI so it can't be a bad lens. 

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

On 3/25/2021 at 4:10 PM, kivis said:

I wish Leica had a 40mm frame line. I love being able to see what's not in my frame when using the 50mm frame on a .72 VF. The 35mm frame is just too stretched out that I can really anticipate a scene. I think a 40mm frame would be perfect. But I am just dreaming. An .85 VF would solve this as ideal with a 50mm frame, but alas I have an M-A so that ain't happening.

The 35mm frame line on a modern Leica (ie, after they added the 28mm frames) is more like a 40mm field of view for most normal shooting distances.  I liked the Voigtlander 40mm/1.4.  I just filed down the claw to bring up the 35mm frame line, but I ended up getting rid of it because I shoot older Leica's.  

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheBestSLIsALeicaflex

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[jaapv]

On 5/10/2021 at 5:55 PM, TheBestSLIsALeicaflex said:

The 35mm frame line on a modern Leica (ie, after they added the 28mm frames) is more like a 40mm field of view for most normal shooting distances.  I liked the Voigtlander 40mm/1.4.  I just filed down the claw to bring up the 35mm frame line, but I ended up getting rid of it because I shoot older Leica's.  

So you did not read my post...🙄