Nicht immer nur Kaviar ... (English Version)

[zeitz]

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10 minutes ago, willeica said:

education is a very central role for most museums these days

Museums seem to be having trouble defining their identity.  Would it be better to place the photography educational exhibits at the Giersch Science Center in Frankfurt with its defined role of education?  And leave the history of E. Leitz and his company to the Leitz/Leica museum?  The George Eastman House in Rochester, NY, seems to retain its focus on the history of Kodak, the history of cameras in general that used their film or their digital photography patents, and the life of George Eastman.  That said, the vast bulk of the Eastman House camera collection is in their "mausoleum".

Perhaps a new model for museums is in order.  The Library of Congress in Washington DC is almost certainly the largest library in the world.  Anyone can get a researchers card at the Library of Congress.  One looks through their catalog, orders the books and in minutes the books are brought to the requester.  Obviously museum items couldn't be handled.  But at least the item could taken off a storage shelf, put in a protective transparent container and set out for a person to view.

The worst trend in museums is to have computers to pull up pictures of their collection.  I can do that at home; no need to go to a museum to see a picture.

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[wlaidlaw]

I dislike modern museums and much preferred the dusty old display cabinets crammed full of items, with hand written labels. I feel most modern museums are museums "lite" aimed at people with a very limited attention span and who require constant stimulation. I recognise I am in a minority and most museums are now aimed at school parties. 

William, 

Does the Pupille take 2 x 4 cm photos? 

Wilson

[thomas_schertel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb willeica:

I was offered one of those meters recently for my one Nikon F. I passed on it as I was not sure if it was working and also because it seemed to be quite complicated to use.

William

My light meter is working. And it is not more complicated as the Photomic:
The fork of the lens couples for the f stops. And you need not turn the diaphragm from right to left, like the ttl finders.
And the time wheel of the meter connects with the shutter.

yours sincerely
Thomas

[willeica]

1 hour ago, zeitz said:

Museums seem to be having trouble defining their identity.  Would it be better to place the photography educational exhibits at the Giersch Science Center in Frankfurt with its defined role of education?  And leave the history of E. Leitz and his company to the Leitz/Leica museum?  The George Eastman House in Rochester, NY, seems to retain its focus on the history of Kodak, the history of cameras in general that used their film or their digital photography patents, and the life of George Eastman.  That said, the vast bulk of the Eastman House camera collection is in their "mausoleum".

Perhaps a new model for museums is in order.  The Library of Congress in Washington DC is almost certainly the largest library in the world.  Anyone can get a researchers card at the Library of Congress.  One looks through their catalog, orders the books and in minutes the books are brought to the requester.  Obviously museum items couldn't be handled.  But at least the item could taken off a storage shelf, put in a protective transparent container and set out for a person to view.

The worst trend in museums is to have computers to pull up pictures of their collection.  I can do that at home; no need to go to a museum to see a picture.

There are many aspects to this. At the Gallery of Photography, Ireland, where I am on the board, we are looking at creating a museum of photography. There are many aspects to preserving photographic collections and presenting them to the public. Our National Photographic Collection is largely housed in our National Library, but only about 50 to 60,000 of the over 5 million items in the collection are digitised. Interested persons can go in on request (closed since Covid commenced) to view collections, but there are limits. Very precious old photographic plates and early calotypes cannot really be handled by non experts, not even with white gloves. And the same would apply to photographic apparatus, where, in some cases, even world renowned experts are not allowed to handle the items. Jim Lager told me that he had only seen the Ur-Leica once and that was when a workman passed him, with the item on a trolley, in a corridor in Wetzlar about 30 or 40 years ago. There is no perfect model. The V&A, which is one of the best funded museums anywhere in the world, has photographic items, such as lenses and cameras, in a warehouse near Swindon. They do not have space to display these items in London, neither do they have the staff available to give access even to interested researchers. I'm not saying that things can't be improved, but everything has costs and resources are never endless. The museum/archives resources which Leica has would be tiny compared to institutions such as the V&A. In truth having digital images available online is very often the only available solution for public presentation. I could go on for hours about this, but I will leave it at that.

1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

I dislike modern museums and much preferred the dusty old display cabinets crammed full of items, with hand written labels. I feel most modern museums are museums "lite" aimed at people with a very limited attention span and who require constant stimulation. I recognise I am in a minority and most museums are now aimed at school parties. 

William, 

Does the Pupille take 2 x 4 cm photos? 

Wilson

You and me both, Wilson, but, with respect, none of us here would be typical of the average member of the public or even photographers that Leica would want to attract to the Ernst Leitz Museum. A lot of us here could, if we had the space and staff resources etc, have enough 'stock' to set up our own museums. There is little that a single institution can do about modern attention spans and interests and institutions just have to address the situations that they find themselves in as regards potential audiences. I was in the Ernst Leitz museum for the opening in September and a lot of the displays there would have been very stimulating for people who did not have much knowledge about photography and Leicas.

The image size of the Pupille is 3x4 cms.

William 

 

[zeitz]

19 minutes ago, willeica said:

a lot of the displays there would have been very stimulating for people who did not have much knowledge about photography

Very interesting discussion and very interesting points, WIlliam.  I hope I didn't hijack Nicht immer nur Kaviar too badly.

The displays you mention could be anywhere in the world.  Leica in Wetzlar has unique and significant items of important historic value; Leica created the small film (24 x 36) market and the form factor of cameras everyone uses today.  Leica Wetzlar has a historic archive of unique accessibility to enthusiasts of Leica; neither Canon nor Nikon has the archive, although Nikon does have a nice museum.  I would adjust any trip I made to Europe to include a visit to Wetzlar, for the unique and significant.  I would only go across my city to see displays for people who did not have much knowledge about photography.

What would the purpose be of the Gallery of Photography?  To collect as many images as possible, but not assume the responsibility of the images being seen by anyone?  (Images that are too fragile to be seen by anyone but the in-house experts effectively no longer exist, because they no long have "being for others".)  To collect images that deeply interested individuals could view and examine in detail?  To explain the evolution of photographic image making using the best examples available?  To move as many people through the door as possible regardless of their interest in historic and artistic photos?

I guess I am saying, what is wrong with a museum that is focused on William and Wilson, and on the typical readers of this subforum?  Where do William and Wilson go to see the unique and significant if not Wetzlar?  Nowhere, because unique means they don't exist anywhere else.  The material Leica holds is more amenable to this cause than to the cause of stimulating people who do not have much knowledge about photography.

[willeica]

6 minutes ago, zeitz said:

Very interesting discussion and very interesting points, WIlliam.  I hope I didn't hijack Nicht immer nur Kaviar too badly.

The displays you mention could be anywhere in the world.  Leica in Wetzlar has unique and significant items of important historic value; Leica created the small film (24 x 36) market and the form factor of cameras everyone uses today.  Leica Wetzlar has a historic archive of unique accessibility to enthusiasts of Leica; neither Canon nor Nikon has the archive, although Nikon does have a nice museum.  I would adjust any trip I made to Europe to include a visit to Wetzlar, for the unique and significant.  I would only go across my city to see displays for people who did not have much knowledge about photography.

What would the purpose be of the Gallery of Photography?  To collect as many images as possible, but not assume the responsibility of the images being seen by anyone?  (Images that are too fragile to be seen by anyone but the in-house experts effectively no longer exist, because they no long have "being for others".)  To collect images that deeply interested individuals could view and examine in detail?  To explain the evolution of photographic image making using the best examples available?  To move as many people through the door as possible regardless of their interest in historic and artistic photos?

I guess I am saying, what is wrong with a museum that is focused on William and Wilson, and on the typical readers of this subforum?  Where do William and Wilson go to see the unique and significant if not Wetzlar?  Nowhere, because unique means they don't exist anywhere else.  The material Leica holds is more amenable to this cause than to the cause of stimulating people who do not have much knowledge about photography.

Where to begin. Photography is much wider than Leica and Kodak and some others could certainly claim to have had a much wider impact in bringing photography around the world. I think that you have mentioned the Eastman Museum already. I am very interested in Leicas  (and many other makes and camera types) and I have a large collection. Most of the photographic apparatus I have seen in Wetzlar, I already have and it is the prototypes, documentation and photographs that interest me the most, but to expect Leica AG at very high cost to present all of this for my interest and that of the relatively small number of serious collectors is just dreaming and not practical. If you read my article here you will get a flavour of what the museum contains https://www.macfilos.com/2021/10/11/opening-of-the-ernst-leitz-museum-in-wetzlar/ . Hopefully, this might help you make up your mind. The most thrilling moment of the visit for me was seeing that negative taken by Barnack which is at the conclusion of my article. This was my third visit to Wetzlar and I had not seen that one before. 

As for the Gallery of Photography, Ireland see here. https://www.galleryofphotography.ie . You can judge that too if you want. We will, of course, need a much larger premises to become a museum of photography and that matter is in hands.

William 

 

 

[jpattison]

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William says above...

"Museums seem to be having trouble defining their identity."

It'll end up like this.....

(It was originally the National Museum of Photography, housing the Royal Photographic Society of Great Britain's collection)

https://www.scienceandmediamuseum.org.uk

John

Edited December 1, 2021 by jpattison

[Pyrogallol]

Talking about handling rare photographs.

Harold White https://wshc.org.uk/lacock/lacock-community/harold-white-and-lacock.html

was a member of our photographic society in his later life and showed us some of his collection of Fox Talbot items, he was the first person to catalogue WHFT’s experiments and discoveries.

I remember the Talbot print he brought up to show us that he had cut in half diagonally and intensified one half.

After his death the collection was sold to Hans P Kraus in the US and a nice set of books was published showing many items that I saw in real life.

Thinking of how just a few steps in memory can take you back to the past, I knew Harold White, he knew Miss Matilda Talbot, she knew her grandfather William Henry Fox Talbot.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Pyrogallol

[willeica]

1 hour ago, jpattison said:

William says above...

"Museums seem to be having trouble defining their identity."

It'll end up like this.....

(It was originally the National Museum of Photography, housing the Royal Photographic Society of Great Britain's collection)

https://www.scienceandmediamuseum.org.uk

John

Some of the items in the V&A warehouse near Swindon came from the National Museum of Photography in Bradford and, as of now, nobody can see them. Photography is still a 'minor sport' at the V&A despite the new centre which was opened in 2018. We can only live in hope and try to raise the profile of historical photography and its methods and apparatus.

William 

[wlaidlaw]

I managed to rescue my 1914 military Richards aerial stereo camera from the French national photo museum in Chalon-sur-Saone. I had lent them the Richards for an exhibit on WW1 aerial photography, which was being set up by a friend but when I visited it some time later, the exhibit had gone and my contact there had left. The museum had been modernised and turned into a playground. I asked for my camera back and showed them a copy of the letter, which confirmed that it had been a loan. They claimed a few weeks later that they had lost the camera, so I put in a claim for €1,000 compensation. Strangely, they then managed to find it. 😀 However, they had the cheek to ask me to pay for return postage and insurance but luckily I was going back to my house in France from the UK just a week or so later and it is just off my route down, so I went and collected it. 

Wilson

[Pyrogallol]

Just got this lens. Meyer Gorlitz Tele Megor 15cm f5.5 in Leica screw. Gave it a quick try on a Fuji X Pro 1 and it seems to focus ok.

will try it on a Leica 11 next.

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[romanus53]

nice lens but should be uncoupled

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[zeitz]

17 hours ago, willeica said:

expect Leica AG at very high cost to present all of this for my interest and that of the relatively small number of serious collectors is just dreaming and not practical

The people who run museums need to have the mindset of librarians.  You can go into any library, request a book from collections that may number in the millions, and have the book in a relatively short period of time, for free.  The staff is quite small.  Example - the University of Rochester holds the remaining archives of Zoomar Inc (see a couple of their zoom lenses in postings above).  A call to the librarian a few days ahead of time resulted in them having 20 boxes of material available for me.  Museum people focus on architectural edifices (example - the Getty Museum in Los Angeles) with every display 3 meter apart; the articles on display are items that interest the museum person.

The Eastman House holds 400,000 images, 28,000 movies, 40,000 documents and 16,000 cameras.  Their website has a defined process for any researcher to gain access to the original material.  I don't know if there is a charge, but there should be.  The general museum, which does charge admission, has nice exhibits of historical and technical relevance as well as George Eastman's house.  The museum does not attempt to be an educational source for photography in general.

That is why I say museums need to define what they are trying to be based on what their assets are in terms of holdings and in terms of financial resources.

[thomas_schertel]

cousins

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yours sincerely
Thomas

[willeica]

5 hours ago, zeitz said:

The people who run museums need to have the mindset of librarians.  You can go into any library, request a book from collections that may number in the millions, and have the book in a relatively short period of time, for free.  The staff is quite small.  Example - the University of Rochester holds the remaining archives of Zoomar Inc (see a couple of their zoom lenses in postings above).  A call to the librarian a few days ahead of time resulted in them having 20 boxes of material available for me.  Museum people focus on architectural edifices (example - the Getty Museum in Los Angeles) with every display 3 meter apart; the articles on display are items that interest the museum person.

The Eastman House holds 400,000 images, 28,000 movies, 40,000 documents and 16,000 cameras.  Their website has a defined process for any researcher to gain access to the original material.  I don't know if there is a charge, but there should be.  The general museum, which does charge admission, has nice exhibits of historical and technical relevance as well as George Eastman's house.  The museum does not attempt to be an educational source for photography in general.

That is why I say museums need to define what they are trying to be based on what their assets are in terms of holdings and in terms of financial resources.

I agree generally with what you say. There are a lot of legacy practices in museums, galleries and other archives which are not really suitable for today. I have yet to come across a perfect one. I'm not sure that libraries are the best analogy. Most libraries have ordinary stock which they can either lend or allow access to , but in many other cases certain items would definitely require supervision if they were made available for inspection. Below is a photo of the first page of the first edition of Newton's Opticks from 1704. The book analyses the fundamental nature of light by means of the refraction of light with prisms and lenses, the diffraction of light by closely spaced sheets of glass, and the behaviour of colour mixtures with spectral lights or pigment powder. The book should be of interest to people here who are interested in the history of the study of light and lenses. This copy was purchased by the Royal Dublin Society (RDS), where I am a member,  in 1928 for the then princely sum of £24. In 1960 somebody actually took this out on loan from the RDS Library, there is a stamp on a card to prove it, but returned it within the requisite period. Which was as well as the last copy of this edition which was sold fetched $87,000. Of course, the value of such an item should not be measured in money as it is really a priceless historical artefact. No one really needs to see the actual first edition as the text is available widely. If such rare and precious items were to be made available for public inspection on request , the staff costs would be very large and I am not sure that most people ( ie readers) would want to pay the costs involved.

 

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I know that this is an extreme case, but I am using it to make a point that museums have also got a duty to protect heritage items and a balance needs to be struck.

There were other precious items in the room on the day that I saw this item, including colour photographic images on glass plates made in Dublin in the 1890s by John Joly, who was a leading member of the Royal Dublin Society. As well as pioneering colour photography,  Joly was also an early pioneer in respect of the use of radium to cure cancer.  On the table beside the book shown above was a receipt from Madame Curie sent to Joly for the purchase of radium. Such precious historical documents need to be protected and preserved. There were a lot of white gloves in the room that day and I have also seen Dr Kaufmann handling rare early Leicas with similar white gloves.

So, while I agree generally with you, the situation is not so so clear when it comes to rare and precious historical items, whatever their value may be.

William

[luigi bertolotti]

Contarex with its shortest & longest focals.

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(Crex Super 2nd version - note the differences with the Super in Thomas' post #398)

[wlaidlaw]

I always wondered about buying a Contarex Super, after using my father's Bulls-eye, which I did not warm to. Another left field quality alternative would be an Alpa, then I remember I have 4 Leica film reflexes on my shelves (Mint SL2, R4-MOT and R8 plus a well used but fully working R9), so really, really don't need any more film SLR cameras 😀

Wilson

 

[thomas_schertel]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb luigi bertolotti:

Contarex with its shortest & longest focals.

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(Crex Super 2nd version - note the differences with the Super in Thomas' post #398)

Very nice. I have only the 35 aund the 135 lens.

The differences betwen the early and late model are mainly the switch for the light meter. It is under the cocking laver. very practical. So you cannot forget to switch the meter off. But there has been the Mirotar 1000 mm

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[luigi bertolotti]

2 hours ago, thomas_schertel said:

 

.... But there has been the Mirotar 1000 mm

... true... I had to specify shortest and longest of mine... 😉  (there was also a 16mm  and even 3 or 4 15mm)

 

[luigi bertolotti]

5 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I always wondered about buying a Contarex Super, after using my father's Bulls-eye, which I did not warm to. Another left field quality alternative would be an Alpa, then I remember I have 4 Leica film reflexes on my shelves (Mint SL2, R4-MOT and R8 plus a well used but fully working R9), so really, really don't need any more film SLR cameras 😀

Wilson

 

Me too time to time think of getting an Alpa (even made a tentative at an auction, conscious that I had 99% chance to be outbid... 🙄 base price was under the normal evaluation for its Macro Switar), but I fear that in case, knowing my passion for glass, I'd subsequently start to chase for lenses, with unpredictable GAS costs... 😁

Contarex, several years ago, was the only SLR I used... a noisy heavy device with spectacular optics and a meter which drained battery like an engine for a radio controlled model car... .

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by luigi bertolotti