GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[PeterGA]

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Personally I am no longer interested in anything that Leica/Fuji or any other camera manufacturer is peddling - until and unless they actually fix the most important missing part of their product offering - and that is easy connectivity to an audience.

My use case stopped being print years ago - sure I print stuff occassionaly and usually very large- hence why I own and use an SL2 and GFX100 - but for most of my photography it is shared on Instagram and diplayed on large monitors hanging on walls. 

It is ridiculous how 'dumb' camera manufacturers are when it comes to making it easy for people to share what they see and shoot. None of the so called wi-fi solutions from any of the camera manufacturers actually work properly, easily and without hassle - it is laughable in this day and age that they all continue to make sharing images - a tiresome and tedious process.

This  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/alice-camera-an-ai-camera-for-content-creators--2#/ is the  most interesting development in camera/video land I've seen in years - I hope Leica is watching - because history is full of best of breed technologies that have died because of failure to deliver true functionality that the market expects as a matter of course.

As for dicussion about specific use cases like sports photography or landscape or architecture or this or that or the other thing - who cares - those markets are extremely well catered for and have been for decades. The Iphone/Android phone succes is about their inbuilt ability to make a photo or a video and actually communicate/share something - quickly, efficiently and immediately - on top of all the other features that their inbuilt communicating technologies allow for - liek phone calls and mesaging etc...

I've given Leicas and Fujis and Sony's away to my children and my nephewes and nieces - and they just dont use them and when I ask why they all say - "my phone does a much better job" - this stuff is old people's stuff - it doesn't conenct to anything, it is too heavy, too complicated, doesn't work, I have to learn photoshop or some other stuff and I'm not interested and who uses computers anyway....etc etc etc..

My other hobby is machining and I have some great Swiss machinery in my collection - love it all - but  a bunch of  best of breed Swiss/German machinery makers all died because too expensive and better cheaper more accurate faster alternatives from Japan|Taiwan and even the US filled the vacuum of irrelevance that these fine old companies built for themselves.

Gone are the days of thinking that 0.01mm is acceptable tolerance and you have to spend a house worth of capital to get it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[LD_50]

30 minutes ago, PeterGA said:

Personally I am no longer interested in anything that Leica/Fuji or any other camera manufacturer is peddling - until and unless they actually fix the most important missing part of their product offering - and that is easy connectivity to an audience.

My use case stopped being print years ago - sure I print stuff occassionaly and usually very large- hence why I own and use an SL2 and GFX100 - but for most of my photography it is shared on Instagram and diplayed on large monitors hanging on walls. 

It is ridiculous how 'dumb' camera manufacturers are when it comes to making it easy for people to share what they see and shoot. None of the so called wi-fi solutions from any of the camera manufacturers actually work properly, easily and without hassle - it is laughable in this day and age that they all continue to make sharing images - a tiresome and tedious process.

This  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/alice-camera-an-ai-camera-for-content-creators--2#/ is the  most interesting development in camera/video land I've seen in years - I hope Leica is watching - because history is full of best of breed technologies that have died because of failure to deliver true functionality that the market expects as a matter of course.

As for dicussion about specific use cases like sports photography or landscape or architecture or this or that or the other thing - who cares - those markets are extremely well catered for and have been for decades. The Iphone/Android phone succes is about their inbuilt ability to make a photo or a video and actually communicate/share something - quickly, efficiently and immediately - on top of all the other features that their inbuilt communicating technologies allow for - liek phone calls and mesaging etc...

I've given Leicas and Fujis and Sony's away to my children and my nephewes and nieces - and they just dont use them and when I ask why they all say - "my phone does a much better job" - this stuff is old people's stuff - it doesn't conenct to anything, it is too heavy, too complicated, doesn't work, I have to learn photoshop or some other stuff and I'm not interested and who uses computers anyway....etc etc etc..

My other hobby is machining and I have some great Swiss machinery in my collection - love it all - but  a bunch of  best of breed Swiss/German machinery makers all died because too expensive and better cheaper more accurate faster alternatives from Japan|Taiwan and even the US filled the vacuum of irrelevance that these fine old companies built for themselves.

Gone are the days of thinking that 0.01mm is acceptable tolerance and you have to spend a house worth of capital to get it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You’re not interested in what the manufacturers are peddling but you own two of the newest high end systems available. 
 

If your point was that connectivity improvements would improve sales because they would solve the problems phones currently solve... I just don’t see it. While I’d welcome those improvements, I think the ship has sailed and the power of a computer in your pocket with an attached camera won’t ever be replaced by a camera emulating some of the phone features. Also, iPhone and Android were popular before the cameras they contain ever started to seriously erode camera sales. Everyone has a phone so the market was and is enormous. The camera came along for the ride. 

[aksclix]

I’ve never quite depended on the WiFi connectivity apps.. a simple iPad SD card reader does it for me, I even got it for CF and XQD cards.. it’s faster and reliable for a quick process and share.. 

 

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, Succisa75 said:

Wish they made the X100 type camera. That would have been a big hit for Leica. I guess will have to wait for that long rumoured EVF M camera and see if it’s like the X100 series. 

My first Fuji was the X100 in 2011, and the last X-Pro2 before I switched to Leica with the M10.  The Q2 is clearly Leica's answer to X100.  I don't know what else you'd envision as a Leica analog of the X100, to me it's clearly that.

[PeterGA]

I mention what some of the cameras I use in order to illustrate how my interest has changed, and  in response to the topic  -  I no longer have any interest in changing, downgrading, upgrading any of the manufacturers current offerings and I have explained why. The GFX100 is now 4 years old and the SL2 is 3. - in camera la la land thse are now middle aged products - as can be seen by the attempted facelift for less offering by Leica and Fuji trying to fill a hole between what they already have and what they may be working on for their next new iterations.

The latest Fuji/Leica or whoever's offerings are boring, expensive and add not one iota of meaningful functionality improvement, utility or amenity to me. I haven't read anything from anyone in this or other threads that come close to changing my mind - and I have explained why, as well as provided a link to the type of functoinality I think would be of interest to me.

The camera and video capabilities of the Android and Iphone are the #1 purchase consideration of new buyers - after price. Clear demonstration of the real market that any camera manufacturer should consider - there are no excuses for their clunky and ill designed attempts to transfer simple jpgs - it isnt rocket science anymore and hasn't been for years.

If you think I am saying that cameras should be come simulcrum of a phone - then you are mistaken.

 

 

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, PeterGA said:

easy connectivity to an audience.

Have you tried Pixii?  It's amazingly seamless in popping up photos on your iphone at once.  I wish Leica buys them and replaces their FOTOS with Pixii.

[Mr.Q]

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5 minutes ago, PeterGA said:

The GFX100 is now 4 years old and the SL2 is 3. - in camera la la land thse are now middle aged products - as can be seen by the attempted facelift for less offering by Leica and Fuji trying to fill a hole between what they already have and what they may be working on for their next new iterations.

Not sure where you are getting your dates.
GFX100 - released June 28, 2019 -  1 year 7 months old
SL2 - released November 6,  2019 -  1 year 3 months old

[PeterGA]

5 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Have you tried Pixii?  It's amazingly seamless in popping up photos on your iphone at once.  I wish Leica buys them and replaces their FOTOS with Pixii.

Thanks for the link I will check it out.👍

[PeterGA]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

Not sure where you are getting your dates.
GFX100 - released June 28, 2019 -  1 year 7 months old
SL2 - released November 6,  2019 -  1 year 3 months old

Thanks for the retail release information - the cameras were being tested a long time before released - yes?

[Mr.Q]

2 minutes ago, PeterGA said:

Thanks for the retail release information - the cameras were being tested a long time before released - yes?

That makes no sense. Do you count people's age based on when their parents started dating or the date of fertilization as well?

[PeterGA]

Just now, Mr.Q said:

That makes no sense. Do you count people's age based on when their parents started dating or the date of fertilization as well?

 

I'm referencing to the age of the technology....if you want to call it 2 yrs old I don't care - makes no substantive contribution or difference to the points I was trying to make - which are obviously of no interest or concern to you.

 

 

 

 

[Succisa75]

44 minutes ago, PeterGA said:

I mention what some of the cameras I use in order to illustrate how my interest has changed, and  in response to the topic  -  I no longer have any interest in changing, downgrading, upgrading any of the manufacturers current offerings and I have explained why. The GFX100 is now 4 years old and the SL2 is 3. - in camera la la land thse are now middle aged products - as can be seen by the attempted facelift for less offering by Leica and Fuji trying to fill a hole between what they already have and what they may be working on for their next new iterations.

The latest Fuji/Leica or whoever's offerings are boring, expensive and add not one iota of meaningful functionality improvement, utility or amenity to me. I haven't read anything from anyone in this or other threads that come close to changing my mind - and I have explained why, as well as provided a link to the type of functoinality I think would be of interest to me.

The camera and video capabilities of the Android and Iphone are the #1 purchase consideration of new buyers - after price. Clear demonstration of the real market that any camera manufacturer should consider - there are no excuses for their clunky and ill designed attempts to transfer simple jpgs - it isnt rocket science anymore and hasn't been for years.

If you think I am saying that cameras should be come simulcrum of a phone - then you are mistaken.

 

 

Valid points. It is sad that in 2021 there isn’t a camera company that can seamlessly transfer photos to a phone or the cloud without some clunky apps. This is an area of technology that would reinvigorate the camera industry for the smartphone generation. 

[beewee]

One of the biggest challenges with seamless transfer is bandwidth for WiFi and the size of the files being generated by the cameras. SL2-S DNGs are 40MB each, SL2 is double that.

Most mobile devices only support WiFi 5 (802.11ac) which tops out at 450 Mbps (~45 MB/s) with 2x2 MIMO. Most cameras don’t even have 2x2 MIMO support so data rates would be even slower. So best case scenario is that you’re getting ~45MB/s, roughly a single SL2-S DNG per second or a single SL2 DNG every 2 seconds. It’s not going to be fast. Leica did make some improvements in that the FOTOS app will send a smaller cached image so you can at least preview which images you want to select and transfer.

WiFi 6 (802.11ax) has yet to be finalized and although it will be faster, it won’t be a giant leap in speed improvement. So clearly wireless communication technology is not where it needs to be for transferring lots of big files. That’s why people still shoot tethered if they really need fast speeds.

That being said, having played around with the USB-C options, I do find that the USB-C mass storage mode works pretty well on the SL2-S and the iPad Pro. You’ll need to set the USB mode on the camera to ‘mass storage’. When you plug the camera’s USB-C port into the iPad Pro’s USB-C port, the iPad will see the camera as a storage device. If you open the Apple Photos app, you can import photos straight from the camera to your Photos app and it’s very fast. As fast as using a high speed SD card reader.

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by beewee

[LD_50]

1 hour ago, PeterGA said:

I mention what some of the cameras I use in order to illustrate how my interest has changed, and  in response to the topic  -  I no longer have any interest in changing, downgrading, upgrading any of the manufacturers current offerings and I have explained why. The GFX100 is now 4 years old and the SL2 is 3. - in camera la la land thse are now middle aged products - as can be seen by the attempted facelift for less offering by Leica and Fuji trying to fill a hole between what they already have and what they may be working on for their next new iterations.

The latest Fuji/Leica or whoever's offerings are boring, expensive and add not one iota of meaningful functionality improvement, utility or amenity to me. I haven't read anything from anyone in this or other threads that come close to changing my mind - and I have explained why, as well as provided a link to the type of functoinality I think would be of interest to me.

The camera and video capabilities of the Android and Iphone are the #1 purchase consideration of new buyers - after price. Clear demonstration of the real market that any camera manufacturer should consider - there are no excuses for their clunky and ill designed attempts to transfer simple jpgs - it isnt rocket science anymore and hasn't been for years.

If you think I am saying that cameras should be come simulcrum of a phone - then you are mistaken.

 

 

Fuji GFX100 is not 4 years old, nor is the SL2 3 years old. Both were released in 2019 and are basically state of the art offerings from each manufacturer. That you are not interested in what Fuji and Leica are peddling simply seemed suspect given you have the latest and greatest from each. 

The camera may be one of the biggest differentiators between phones, but that’s for people already buying them. In other words it’s not the camera that leads to the phone purchase (everyone has one, camera or no) and it’s not something someone would choose not to buy if a camera offered great connectivity in line with what phones offer. It was inevitable for phone cameras to become good enough for the way we consume photos, regardless the available connectivity of stand alone cameras. Sales of cameras were bound to decline.

I agree that better connectivity is a clear opportunity for the manufacturers to differentiate their cameras, much like better cameras help differentiate phones. Thom Hogan has been writing about this for some time as well. 

[PeterGA]

1 hour ago, beewee said:

One of the biggest challenges with seamless transfer is bandwidth for WiFi and the size of the files being generated by the cameras. SL2-S DNGs are 40MB each, SL2 is double that.

Most mobile devices only support WiFi 5 (802.11ac) which tops out at 450 Mbps (~45 MB/s) with 2x2 MIMO. Most cameras don’t even have 2x2 MIMO support so data rates would be even slower. So best case scenario is that you’re getting ~45MB/s, roughly a single SL2-S DNG per second or a single SL2 DNG every 2 seconds. It’s not going to be fast. Leica did make some improvements in that the FOTOS app will send a smaller cached image so you can at least preview which images you want to select and transfer.

WiFi 6 (802.11ax) has yet to be finalized and although it will be faster, it won’t be a giant leap in speed improvement. So clearly wireless communication technology is not where it needs to be for transferring lots of big files. That’s why people still shoot tethered if they really need fast speeds.

That being said, having played around with the USB-C options, I do find that the USB-C mass storage mode works pretty well on the SL2-S and the iPad Pro. You’ll need to set the USB mode on the camera to ‘mass storage’. When you plug the camera’s USB-C port into the iPad Pro’s USB-C port, the iPad will see the camera as a storage device. If you open the Apple Photos app, you can import photos straight from the camera to your Photos app and it’s very fast. As fast as using a high speed SD card reader.

 

JPG's dont have to be big - look at the photo sizes posted on this site : Instagram etc require kilobytes of data not tens of megabytes...

 

[LD_50]

8 minutes ago, PeterGA said:

JPG's dont have to be big - look at the photo sizes posted on this site : Instagram etc require kilobytes of data not tens of megabytes...

 

You’re right. The camera makers seem to be only considering how to offload the full size photos for later processing. Even Zeiss seems to have wasted a lot of work making a Lightroom interface for a camera, which makes little sense without the integration with social media services.  

Someone really needs to partner with Apple or Google or FB/Instagram for the software and user experience to connect to social media.

[PeterGA]

20 minutes ago, LD_50 said:

Fuji GFX100 is not 4 years old, nor is the SL2 3 years old. Both were released in 2019 and are basically state of the art offerings from each manufacturer. That you are not interested in what Fuji and Leica are peddling simply seemed suspect given you have the latest and greatest from each. 

The camera may be one of the biggest differentiators between phones, but that’s for people already buying them. In other words it’s not the camera that leads to the phone purchase (everyone has one, camera or no) and it’s not something someone would choose not to buy if a camera offered great connectivity in line with what phones offer. It was inevitable for phone cameras to become good enough for the way we consume photos, regardless the available connectivity of stand alone cameras. Sales of cameras were bound to decline.

I agree that better connectivity is a clear opportunity for the manufacturers to differentiate their cameras, much like better cameras help differentiate phones. Thom Hogan has been writing about this for some time as well. 

I dont know what motivates you to make photographs - for me it is sharing with family and friends - the easier this is to do and the faster it is to do the better.

If you are finding this to be  suspicious and therefore what I say is suspect - lets leave it at that.

 

 

[PeterGA]

1 minute ago, LD_50 said:

You’re right. The camera makers seem to be only considering how to offload the full size photos for later processing. Even Zeiss seems to have wasted a lot of work making a Lightroom interface for a camera, which makes little sense without the integration with social media services.  

Someone really needs to partner with Apple or Google or FB/Instagram for the software and user experience to connect to social media.

Ahh finally - you are understanding what i am trying to say ....👍

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Hallo,

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[beewee]

1 hour ago, PeterGA said:

JPG's dont have to be big - look at the photo sizes posted on this site : Instagram etc require kilobytes of data not tens of megabytes...

 

If all you want to do is share JPEGS then you are better off taking photos on your phone camera. In fact, you would get better photos with your phone because it’s always with you and it would be more flexible and people tend to behave more naturally in front of a phone as compared to a big camera. Trying to use a big chunky camera for instagram shots seems like the wrong tool for the job if what you care about is social media where an iPhone would be a better tool.

If you want to have the best of both worlds where you have full size DNGs and smaller JPEGs, the FOTOS app works well enough that you can import JPEGS to your phone and instagram away but that seems to be complicating things unnecessary. A phone camera is good enough for most things.

Car analogy: complaining about workflow for a beefy interchangeable lens camera being ill suited for social media is a bit like complaining that a Ferrari LaFerrari is not very good for grocery shopping because it’s doesn’t have enough storage space and doesn’t do well with speed bumps at the parking lot. Or a Porsche 911 GT3 isn’t really great for winter driving because the road salt/gravel/grit chews up the aero work in the under carriage. They just weren’t really designed for that use case.

Edited February 18, 2021 by beewee

[Cobram]

6 hours ago, PeterGA said:

Personally I am no longer interested in anything that Leica/Fuji or any other camera manufacturer is peddling - until and unless they actually fix the most important missing part of their product offering - and that is easy connectivity to an audience.

My use case stopped being print years ago - sure I print stuff occassionaly and usually very large- hence why I own and use an SL2 and GFX100 - but for most of my photography it is shared on Instagram and diplayed on large monitors hanging on walls. 

It is ridiculous how 'dumb' camera manufacturers are when it comes to making it easy for people to share what they see and shoot. None of the so called wi-fi solutions from any of the camera manufacturers actually work properly, easily and without hassle - it is laughable in this day and age that they all continue to make sharing images - a tiresome and tedious process.

This  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/alice-camera-an-ai-camera-for-content-creators--2#/ is the  most interesting development in camera/video land I've seen in years - I hope Leica is watching - because history is full of best of breed technologies that have died because of failure to deliver true functionality that the market expects as a matter of course.

As for dicussion about specific use cases like sports photography or landscape or architecture or this or that or the other thing - who cares - those markets are extremely well catered for and have been for decades. The Iphone/Android phone succes is about their inbuilt ability to make a photo or a video and actually communicate/share something - quickly, efficiently and immediately - on top of all the other features that their inbuilt communicating technologies allow for - liek phone calls and mesaging etc...

I've given Leicas and Fujis and Sony's away to my children and my nephewes and nieces - and they just dont use them and when I ask why they all say - "my phone does a much better job" - this stuff is old people's stuff - it doesn't conenct to anything, it is too heavy, too complicated, doesn't work, I have to learn photoshop or some other stuff and I'm not interested and who uses computers anyway....etc etc etc..

My other hobby is machining and I have some great Swiss machinery in my collection - love it all - but  a bunch of  best of breed Swiss/German machinery makers all died because too expensive and better cheaper more accurate faster alternatives from Japan|Taiwan and even the US filled the vacuum of irrelevance that these fine old companies built for themselves.

Gone are the days of thinking that 0.01mm is acceptable tolerance and you have to spend a house worth of capital to get it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree 100% with your comment. 

Young users are less attracted to Leica. Believe it or not, in last two years only one proffesional photographer asked me about my Leica, when he saw me using my M combo.

All other comments were limited to "how beautiful is your mechanical film camera". How old is it? Was your grandfather's?"😅

Leica is pushing prices but not the technology. How many young users will be inclined to deal with redish skin tones and time consuming grading as they already know the iPhone/Huawei,.. can snap, make AI Bokeh and color grading as well as upload in 1-2 minutes? 

BUT: I really don't want Leica to compete with smartphones market. Huawei-Leica partnership is very good solution. What I want is Huawei knowledge inside Leica cameras. Why? Because they produce and know details about electronics components and can help Leica to make more reliable and cheaper (niche) cameras. My experience from automotive bussiness indicates Leica sales numbers are too small for manufacturers of electronic components. I think this is the root cause of Leica's reported (many threads on LUF) problems with electronics. They are just to small. 

I currently own only M-E220 and SL and sincerely hope Leica will survive Industry 4.0 revolution. Leica rendering is now part of my DNA 😅

Edited February 18, 2021 by Cobram