S4 product recommendation

[mgrayson3]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, aksclix said:

Right.. just wishful thinking.. wonder what S users would like to see in the future 

More AF points + better AF accuracy, perhaps AF calibration per lens.

Long exposure without dark frame.

Nothing else.

Edited January 28, 2021 by mgrayson3

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[John McMaster]

15 minutes ago, Dr No said:

- Leica use 4:3 sensor ratios only as part of the heritage of leica, the 35mm format they invented. It would need new lenses too, a massive investment.

I think you mean 3:2 😉  4:3 would probably be covered but I doubt a 53 x 40 sensor would be....

john

[HuntingSand]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb aksclix:

Right.. just wishful thinking.. wonder what S users would like to see in the future 

There are three stakeholders in play here at Leica:
1. The tech people. They would be thrilled to start working on a new iteration of the S. Unfortunately, with the S3, they were hobbled by internal forces.
2. The marketing people. For obvious reasons, they also would love to see a high-end product such as the S being placed "among the pigeons" so to speak, just like Toyota or Renault or Honda (never mind Lotus or Ferrari) are part of international racing teams. 
3. The business / investment / private equity / shareholder people. They take the "What's the bottom line here?" approach, and for them, the S is a losing proposition. The S3 is produced in ridiculously low numbers (as are some of the lenses), and therefore lacks market penetration and visibility. The decision before those folk right now is what to do with the much more popular APS-C line. 

It's not an uncommon mix of internal push and pull of course, many companies experience these convergent forces. Leica doesn't exactly have a stellar track record when it comes to the executive branch over the past decade or so, which is a bit of a concern regarding rational (or sensible, or profitable) decision making.

[Dr No]

15 minutes ago, John McMaster said:

I think you mean 3:2 😉  4:3 would probably be covered but I doubt a 53 x 40 sensor would be....

john

sorry yes 3:2 not sure what my brain was doing there 😁

[Stuart Richardson]

While I have no knowledge of what Leica is planning on this front, I think one way to think about what may be their plans is to think about what does the S struggle with, and what are the potential things they could do to solve those issues. I prefer the optical viewfinder, but mirrorless does solve a lot of issues...

If we assume the S4 will be mirrorless, then I think there are some interesting opportunities. What is in general biggest complaint about the S system, apart from cost? It seems to be AF. Both accuracy and number of AF points. If it is mirrorless, that is basically solved in one go. Contrast detect or a mix of contrast detect and phase detect sensors will bring AF in line with the SL, which is probably enough for MF and S users.

What would also be interesting with a mirrorless S camera would be system integration, which to my knowledge, no one is talking about. Maybe there are technical reasons why it is not possible, but I can see that if they went to mirrorless, they could potentially use an L mount or modified S mount at a closer flange distance. I can see a scenario where the S would be the "super camera". It would natively take S lenses (likely through a sturdy adapter), but you could also use SL, M and R lenses in crop 35mm mode, just like how the SL2 uses APS-C. I think this could be a brilliant solution, as it would allow the S lenses to retain their full angle of view, and would open the camera up to basically any lens in the arsenal. If there were new S lenses with updated AF and designed for mirrorless, this would be one way to have a single camera system that could do everything. You have the large sensor and MF glass for when you want the full resolution and look of the S lenses, but if you want a more specific or versatile lens option, you can choose from all the L mount lenses, all the R lenses and even the M lenses. Assuming you used the current sensor in the SL2, you would have a body with around 70+mp that shot in 47mp in "crop mode". I think a camera like this could be more likely to sell to a wider segment, as it would be less of a closed system than the S is now. Rather than only having the S lenses and older MF lenses, you could step into the system with your L mount lenses and then get one or two S lenses to start. Anyway, just a thought. I am not sure if this would work, but it seems pretty logical. I guess the key question is whether you can make the flange distance short enough to support the L mount lenses, while still having a lens mount wide enough to have coverage for the S format.

[aksclix]

47 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

While I have no knowledge of what Leica is planning on this front, I think one way to think about what may be their plans is to think about what does the S struggle with, and what are the potential things they could do to solve those issues. I prefer the optical viewfinder, but mirrorless does solve a lot of issues...

If we assume the S4 will be mirrorless, then I think there are some interesting opportunities. What is in general biggest complaint about the S system, apart from cost? It seems to be AF. Both accuracy and number of AF points. If it is mirrorless, that is basically solved in one go. Contrast detect or a mix of contrast detect and phase detect sensors will bring AF in line with the SL, which is probably enough for MF and S users.

What would also be interesting with a mirrorless S camera would be system integration, which to my knowledge, no one is talking about. Maybe there are technical reasons why it is not possible, but I can see that if they went to mirrorless, they could potentially use an L mount or modified S mount at a closer flange distance. I can see a scenario where the S would be the "super camera". It would natively take S lenses (likely through a sturdy adapter), but you could also use SL, M and R lenses in crop 35mm mode, just like how the SL2 uses APS-C. I think this could be a brilliant solution, as it would allow the S lenses to retain their full angle of view, and would open the camera up to basically any lens in the arsenal. If there were new S lenses with updated AF and designed for mirrorless, this would be one way to have a single camera system that could do everything. You have the large sensor and MF glass for when you want the full resolution and look of the S lenses, but if you want a more specific or versatile lens option, you can choose from all the L mount lenses, all the R lenses and even the M lenses. Assuming you used the current sensor in the SL2, you would have a body with around 70+mp that shot in 47mp in "crop mode". I think a camera like this could be more likely to sell to a wider segment, as it would be less of a closed system than the S is now. Rather than only having the S lenses and older MF lenses, you could step into the system with your L mount lenses and then get one or two S lenses to start. Anyway, just a thought. I am not sure if this would work, but it seems pretty logical. I guess the key question is whether you can make the flange distance short enough to support the L mount lenses, while still having a lens mount wide enough to have coverage for the S format.

You just articulated what I had in mind a lot better.. 

I think I would love to see something like an R 180 f2 lens for the S or the desired S mirrorless if they come up with one at all! Offer something unique like what. Canon did with their 28-70 f2 perhaps.. 

this last decade has been extremely revolutionary and that’s what excites me about what is to come 

Edited January 28, 2021 by aksclix

[chrismuc]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Honestly I don't think there will be a S4.

S4 as DSLR

If Leica would have decided to invest in a technically really updated model (more MP, IBIS, sensor ultrasonic cleaning, more AF-points, AF micro-adjustment, eventually tilt screen ...) they would have done with the S3 but they didn't. 

S4 as mirrorless

Too late to the game with the new kid in the ballpark, the GFX100s with all its features in such a small package for 1/3 the price of the S.

(Plus the requirement/investment in developing new lenses.)

S4 with 5440 sensor 

Too high investment for a whole set of new lenses for a super small potential customer group (professionals and rich Leica enthusiast amateurs).

[chrismuc]

Btw., one of the vendors of AF-adapters is my friend and I constantly motivate him to develop an S-GF adapter because I thought it would be an interesting option for all the Leica S users to add a GFX to use with all of their lenses and benefit of the various mirrorless features. He bought a Leica S2 for that purpose but he told me that the S lenses are so rather expensive on second hand market that he can't afford to buy a whole set for development and testing such an adapter.

[aksclix]

Anybody who wants an S lens is most likely gonna wanna S body too, so I guess that’s another reason.. 

And to your points..

S4 as mirrorless, it might win back customers lost today switched to other brands.. in fact even I’ll be tempted by selling a lot of my gear 😌

S4 with bigger MF sensor - yes, unlikely so, just wishful thinking.. 

If they make another DSLR type body it better come with hellova lot of enhancements.. otherwise there’s no compelling reason to upgrade from an S3.. in fact it seems like many are content with S007 that they aren’t too keen on replacing it with an S3 

[ynp]

2 hours ago, chrismuc said:

Btw., one of the vendors of AF-adapters is my friend and I constantly motivate him to develop an S-GF adapter because I thought it would be an interesting option for all the Leica S users to add a GFX to use with all of their lenses and benefit of the various mirrorless features. He bought a Leica S2 for that purpose but he told me that the S lenses are so rather expensive on second hand market that he can't afford to buy a whole set for development and testing such an adapter.

I talked to two Chinese adapter manufacturers and even offered a development budget and access to the lenses to one of them. They see no market in the S-GFX adaptation. After I have spent some time with a GFX 50r camera and the Contax645 lenses,  I lost any interest in those adapters. 

[LeicaR10]

More interesting ideas and comments on what an S4 should be or not.  I always find many comments akin to people saying they want to own a Ferrari but want the price to be at $10K so they can "own one".   IMO, what many are asking is an existing or future SL-X.  Why bother with making the S system something it is not nor will be unless it is totally redesigned?  Leica knows about the desire for a mirrorless S and based on my correspondence with them, something is in the works.  From what I have read, S photographers simply love the brilliant optical view finder (to include me) and would only consider a EVF ONLY IF it were better than the present and superb OVF.   Leica knows this as well.  The S lenses are simply superb and clearly render in a cinematic way with no manipulation. The other brands depend on optical manipulation because they cut costs.  Instead of wishing/wanting for more, more, more...I submit either photographers who want more or features they describe in the SL or other brand MF cameras, simply go buy the other brands and "be happy".  In the meantime, photographers who actually own (not wannabes) and use the S system, know its capabilities, do get out and strive to create photographic masterpieces, that again, make the viewer;  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  r/ Mark

[aksclix]

1 hour ago, LeicaR10 said:

More interesting ideas and comments on what an S4 should be or not.  I always find many comments akin to people saying they want to own a Ferrari but want the price to be at $10K so they can "own one".   IMO, what many are asking is an existing or future SL-X.  Why bother with making the S system something it is not nor will be unless it is totally redesigned?  Leica knows about the desire for a mirrorless S and based on my correspondence with them, something is in the works.  From what I have read, S photographers simply love the brilliant optical view finder (to include me) and would only consider a EVF ONLY IF it were better than the present and superb OVF.   Leica knows this as well.  The S lenses are simply superb and clearly render in a cinematic way with no manipulation. The other brands depend on optical manipulation because they cut costs.  Instead of wishing/wanting for more, more, more...I submit either photographers who want more or features they describe in the SL or other brand MF cameras, simply go buy the other brands and "be happy".  In the meantime, photographers who actually own (not wannabes) and use the S system, know its capabilities, do get out and strive to create photographic masterpieces, that again, make the viewer;  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  r/ Mark

Oh apologies from me and the other wannabes out there.. we deserve no place. We better go hide and the only amazing self proclaimed artists behold the amazing S system.. 

just talk for yourself please.. what others want is completely irrelevant to you! 

Edited January 29, 2021 by aksclix

[aksclix]

The engineering happening behind is light years ahead of mere photographers so just shelve the ego and the arrogance and welcome any discussion.. my 2 cents!

[ropo54]

12 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

While I have no knowledge of what Leica is planning on this front, I think one way to think about what may be their plans is to think about what does the S struggle with, and what are the potential things they could do to solve those issues. I prefer the optical viewfinder, but mirrorless does solve a lot of issues...

If we assume the S4 will be mirrorless, then I think there are some interesting opportunities. What is in general biggest complaint about the S system, apart from cost? It seems to be AF. Both accuracy and number of AF points. If it is mirrorless, that is basically solved in one go. Contrast detect or a mix of contrast detect and phase detect sensors will bring AF in line with the SL, which is probably enough for MF and S users.

What would also be interesting with a mirrorless S camera would be system integration, which to my knowledge, no one is talking about. Maybe there are technical reasons why it is not possible, but I can see that if they went to mirrorless, they could potentially use an L mount or modified S mount at a closer flange distance. I can see a scenario where the S would be the "super camera". It would natively take S lenses (likely through a sturdy adapter), but you could also use SL, M and R lenses in crop 35mm mode, just like how the SL2 uses APS-C. I think this could be a brilliant solution, as it would allow the S lenses to retain their full angle of view, and would open the camera up to basically any lens in the arsenal. If there were new S lenses with updated AF and designed for mirrorless, this would be one way to have a single camera system that could do everything. You have the large sensor and MF glass for when you want the full resolution and look of the S lenses, but if you want a more specific or versatile lens option, you can choose from all the L mount lenses, all the R lenses and even the M lenses. Assuming you used the current sensor in the SL2, you would have a body with around 70+mp that shot in 47mp in "crop mode". I think a camera like this could be more likely to sell to a wider segment, as it would be less of a closed system than the S is now. Rather than only having the S lenses and older MF lenses, you could step into the system with your L mount lenses and then get one or two S lenses to start. Anyway, just a thought. I am not sure if this would work, but it seems pretty logical. I guess the key question is whether you can make the flange distance short enough to support the L mount lenses, while still having a lens mount wide enough to have coverage for the S format.

Please excuse my technological ignorance, but doesn't Leica have the beginning of such a system with the SL line coupled with the S to SL adapter (which allows use of S lenses with the SL system)?  If so, it seems that all that is required is to incorporate a medium format sensor in replacement of the existing SL's sensor. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Yes, but that would depend on whether the L mount can support the full image circle of the larger format. I assumed not, which would mean they would need to use something like the S mount. But that is more or less how I was thinking of it....an SL with a larger sensor. It seems that if the S is going to be mirrorless, then the only difference between the SL and S would be sensor size.

Anyway, I am not saying the S system is inadequate now or because it has a mirror. But only that if we assume that the S4 is mirrorless (which is at least what was suggested to me), then that is one way it might work.

[bags27]

The world and world of photography has certainly changed since then, but in an interview (IIRC) in the summer of 2019 though it might have been 2018, Andreas Kaufman said that the next iteration of the S was likely to be mirrorless.

[BernardC]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It seems that if the S is going to be mirrorless, then the only difference between the SL and S would be sensor size.

One cool thing that I've always wanted: vertical, horizontal, or square cropping without flipping the camera. Sure, you can do it in post, but then you need to manually crop each and every frame.

On the other hand, if going mirrorless means fly-by-wire focusing, I'm not interested. That's the main shortcoming of the SL lenses: the disconnect between movement of the focus ring and movement of the focal plane. My style of photography depends on precise positioning of the focal plane. I naively assume that anyone else who is makes the effort to use a bigger format  wants that as well.  Extra pixels don't make much difference if you use AF. The SL2 more than covers that requirement, and it's not short of pixels.

[Stuart Richardson]

I am not quite sure I follow you regarding extra pixels not making a difference if you use AF? Nor format?  I don't see how one has any relation to the other. There have been AF medium format cameras for 30 something years...

It only seems logical that if they have new lenses, they would use the most recent technology, which is closer to the SL line. Thankfully, the firmware update has made it so that linear focus movement is possible, and you can choose it at the ratio you like. I think that has made a huge difference in the MF feel of the SL lenses. Of course, if you want full time manual, the S lenses have it and still are brilliant and surely will be for years to come. But the tradeoff is that they have a louder, slower AF system.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jeff S]

Stuart, you beat me to the benefits regarding the recent SL lens FW update, which provides for linear manual focus and choice of focus throw.  So, +1.

I also think that SL zooms outperform the S zoom, and added OIS (in 2 of 3) is welcome.

Jeff

[BernardC]

20 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I am not quite sure I follow you regarding extra pixels not making a difference if you use AF? Nor format? 

Because the focal plane is the foundation on which I build my composition, and it gets more critical with bigger formats.

AF gets something in focus (more or less), but that something is rarely exactly where I would have put the focal plane. In other words, the part of the image that I need to be sharpest isn't. Megapixels don't help if you're not in focus.

 

I know about the firmware update. Manual focusing still feels like driving in snow: you send a command and it will be executed eventually. Sometimes you focus in one direction and the lens is still moving in the other. The EVF is a few beats behind as well, so the experience is frustrating. I totally understand why Leica doesn't feel that the technology is ready for the S product line (even though it's used on the SL lineup). Let's wait and see if it's a problem that can be solved.