BernardC Posted October 19, 2022 Share #281 Posted October 19, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 42 minutes ago, padam said: here is no reason to do that anymore. Everything that is developed around the new sensor (new processor, completely new AF system, IBIS, video features, etc.) would be wasted in a DSLR body, and they will want to sell their fancy new lenses as well. Even Canon and Nikon are completely leaving their old mounts, despite having a big user base. The main reason that I can think of is if they can sell enough to break even. There is a small group of professional S shooters who want an SLR. Admittedly, most of us can get by with mirrorless (or an SL, to be honest). One issue may be getting hold of SLR-specific components, like the PDAF sensor in the mirror box. I doubt that Leica makes their own, and their supplier is unlikely to keep producing them if no one else is building SLRs. The S has had live view, video, etc., since the 007, so any new features in the mirrorless code would just replace existing features. The S, SL, Q, and M all use the same software architecture anyway. None of this should distract us from the great news that Leica is working on a new medium format camera. Hopefully this news will head-off a lot of threads about "what's happening with the S?" over the next few years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 19, 2022 Posted October 19, 2022 Hi BernardC, Take a look here S4 product recommendation. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
padam Posted October 19, 2022 Share #282 Posted October 19, 2022 12 minutes ago, BernardC said: There is a small group of professional S shooters who want an SLR. The S3 was already a pretty discreet update, they've kept the ancient LCD and other features and didn't use software from other cameras. For that small group of professionals who need that particular design, there is really not much more to add to that. They can offer that and the lenses for a few more years until the new system fills up. It's all about moving forward. They really don't need a product that won't sell well and competes against their own product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 19, 2022 Share #283 Posted October 19, 2022 9 hours ago, padam said: https://leicarumors.com/2022/10/19/extremely-interesting-comments-from-stefan-daniel-leica-mirrorless-medium-format-camera-m-camera-with-evf-and-more.aspx/ Seeing as it will be a completely new system, it might not actually be called an S4. Leica rumors mis-copied information from here: https://www.macfilos.com/2022/10/18/leicas-stefan-daniel-on-the-retirement-of-the-leica-cl-and-some-hints-for-the-future/ 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted October 20, 2022 Share #284 Posted October 20, 2022 17 hours ago, padam said: The S3 was already a pretty discreet update, they've kept the ancient LCD and other features and didn't use software from other cameras. All of the updates to the original S2 (2008) have been discreet. That's what the professional market wants. I don't think that the S doesn't "use software from other cameras," but I have no inside information. It was first to use the maestro chip, and the software interface is similar to the SL/Q, and later Ms. If they don't use the same software, why not? It runs on the same chip, acts the same, and looks the same. Obviously some functions will be S-specific, but it would be quite wasteful to re-develop what they already have for the bulk of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnian Posted October 20, 2022 Share #285 Posted October 20, 2022 A Leica employee from the head office in Wetzlar told me today that the 007 is now a discontinued model. Am I the last to know this?? 😳 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted October 20, 2022 Share #286 Posted October 20, 2022 28 minutes ago, Sarnian said: A Leica employee from the head office in Wetzlar told me today that the 007 is now a discontinued model. Am I the last to know this?? 😳 The 007 was released in 2016. The S3 is its replacement. It was released in 2020. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnian Posted October 20, 2022 Share #287 Posted October 20, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 24 minutes ago, BernardC said: The 007 was released in 2016. The S3 is its replacement. It was released in 2020. Not many people can afford to replace/upgrade their 007 to an S3. I got my mint condition second-hand 007 for £2,700 (about £1,000 lower that what it should have been, granted) whereas second-hand S3's, if you can find one, are around £10,000. Sony's incremental replacements (e.g. A7Riii to A7Riv) are nowhere near as far apart in price difference. Maybe Leica could have produced an S008 for those of us who aren't wealthy enough to upgrade to an S3 as if it were chump change. Just saying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter12 Posted October 20, 2022 Share #288 Posted October 20, 2022 18 minutes ago, Sarnian said: Not many people can afford to replace/upgrade their 007 to an S3. I got my mint condition second-hand 007 for £2,700 (about £1,000 lower that what it should have been, granted) whereas second-hand S3's, if you can find one, are around £10,000. Sony's incremental replacements (e.g. A7Riii to A7Riv) are nowhere near as far apart in price difference. Maybe Leica could have produced an S008 for those of us who aren't wealthy enough to upgrade to an S3 as if it were chump change. Just saying. I am not sure, seeing the overall price range of Leica equipment, that they consider the affordability of their medium format gear as a priority. In modern times, medium format has usually been the platform of professional photographers (who can write off or charge back equipment costs) or well-off amateurs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted October 21, 2022 Share #289 Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) Yeah, your experience is a total anomaly based on the horrendous performance of the S cameras in the market after the introduction of 40mp plus 35mm cameras and especially after cheaper 50-100mp medium format mirrorless cameras. You bought an S007 for 2700 GBP, which is not close to its intended value. In other words, you DID obtain it for 2700, but you should not have been able to. Not at 3700 either. A more reasonable used price based on the original retail should have been closer to 10,000 GBP. It seems that it was released at 12900 GBP, at a time when the pound had value, as it was introduced at 20,000 USD at the time. I am certainly not saying you shouldn't be able to buy an S at whatever the market decides it should cost, but 2700 might even be lower than Leica's cost on the sensor assembly. There is no way they could produce and market a camera of that caliber in such a low quantity at anything near that price, or even double that price. It also sounds like you think Leica is setting the price of the used market. They certainly are not. Having a camera that retails for 20,000 dollars be resold a year later at 4 or 5000 is a disaster for their customer relations and is reflective primarily of Leica stores trying to get rid of old stock of a very slow moving camera, and end users in the system desperately trying to get anything they can out of their S kit as they abandoned the system for the more modern and technically superior cameras from basically every other manufacturer. The S is a great camera in many ways, but it is an extremely hard sell. Most dealers don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole at this point. Even if you can find a dealer to take the equipment, it does not sell unless you lower the prices to bargain basement levels. An S2 currently costs the same as an M8...a 10mp APS camera! Edited October 21, 2022 by Stuart Richardson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 21, 2022 Share #290 Posted October 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said: . An S2 currently costs the same as an M8...a 10mp APS camera! And the launch price was $23k US for the ‘standard’ body, and $28k for the upgraded version (sapphire screen and extended warranty). The subsequent medium format releases from Pentax at about $10k, and later from Fuji and Hasselblad, put Leica pricing in a tough spot. The S prices came down to $16k, but were then bumped back to about $20k. The AF lens fiasco helped to sink used prices… and the rest is history. A mirror-less S4 would bring a whole new chapter. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted October 21, 2022 Share #291 Posted October 21, 2022 Compared to the S cameras to date that are more unique with their mirrored OVF, the challenge I see for a Leica medium format mirrorless is the even more obvious price comparisons that people could make with X2D, GFX100(S) etc. When I think about the SL, I’ve always thought the pricing of that product line (including lenses) was relatively sensible and justifiable - for my pocket at least - when I compare its pricing versus full frame mirrorless like the Canon R5, especially when factoring in the SL price promotions etc. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnian Posted October 21, 2022 Share #292 Posted October 21, 2022 6 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said: You bought an S007 for 2700 GBP, which is not close to its intended value. In other words, you DID obtain it for 2700, but you should not have been able to. I totally agree with you! I saw it listed online (on the website of a very reputable UK camera dealership) and jumped at the chance - after getting back on my chair!! 🤯 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/317391-s4-product-recommendation/?do=findComment&comment=4540562'>More sharing options...
BernardC Posted October 21, 2022 Share #293 Posted October 21, 2022 You got a great deal on a used discontinued professional camera. You'll get many years of enjoyment out of it. The main market for the S is professionals who depreciate it as a business expense, the same way that a renovation company depreciates a van. They have no interest in buying used cameras, so the rest of us can get them for cheap, as long as we don't mind being a generation behind. No such deals on the S3 yet, but maybe in a few years when the S4 comes out. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritas Posted December 17, 2022 Share #294 Posted December 17, 2022 (edited) I Hope - larger sensor - body size and weight with similar form factor Like a Hasselblad or Fuji or a new Innovation? Very smal ans Compact Medium size Camera the Same Innovation like With the Leica Edited December 17, 2022 by Veritas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Googaliser Posted December 21, 2022 Share #295 Posted December 21, 2022 I'm sceptical about a larger sensor on a mirrorless 'S4' - it would render the existing glass unusable (even with an adaptor). My guess is that the ProFormat remains, but we may see a resolution bump Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted December 21, 2022 Share #296 Posted December 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Googaliser said: I'm sceptical about a larger sensor on a mirrorless 'S4' - it would render the existing glass unusable (even with an adaptor). My guess is that the ProFormat remains, but we may see a resolution bump Sony's small medium format sensors (GFX, X2D) have nearly the same image circle as the S sensors, so that's an option for Leica. They are technically "bigger", in terms of square millimeters, but shorter in the long dimension. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted December 21, 2022 Share #297 Posted December 21, 2022 Mirrorless should indeed provide the potential benefit of smaller and lighter body, as well as a better optical equations due to the shorter flange distance, though SL, Canon, and Nikon real product show the opposite trend. Nevertheless, as least marketing perception points to this direction, The question is Leica’s migration strategy if deciding a mirrorless S equivalent. Should it keep the same mount but just remove the mirror biz or just offer an adapter initially, then redesign all lenses? Or choose a modified SL mount for unification? How about the ray angle problem? Would that be a real win? I doubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted December 21, 2022 Share #298 Posted December 21, 2022 25 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said: The question is Leica’s migration strategy if deciding a mirrorless S equivalent. Should it keep the same mount but just remove the mirror biz or just offer an adapter initially, then redesign all lenses? Or choose a modified SL mount for unification? How about the ray angle problem? Would that be a real win? I doubt. A mirrorless design would require all-new lenses. The problem isn't just size (SLR lenses are usually bigger), but also optical design. S lenses have heavy focusing groups and motors, which aren't suitable for fast focus speeds. Leica's SL lenses have much smaller focusing groups and faster motors. The downside of these is that they are "fly by wire," so they don't provide the same manual focus feel and accuracy as the S lenses. The other downside is that the lens designs tend to be more complex (more elements). That's not something that an end-user would notice in an obvious way, of course. Given all-new lenses that are incompatible with the S, the simplest choice is to design a new lens mount. We all assume that there will be an adapter for S lenses, even if their mechanical performance would be compromised. Ray angle shouldn't be a problem. S lenses are designed to be mounted farther from the sensor, so they don't have steep ray angles. Any new lenses will be optimized for the new system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted December 21, 2022 Share #299 Posted December 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, BernardC said: A mirrorless design would require all-new lenses. The problem isn't just size (SLR lenses are usually bigger), but also optical design. S lenses have heavy focusing groups and motors, which aren't suitable for fast focus speeds. Leica's SL lenses have much smaller focusing groups and faster motors. The downside of these is that they are "fly by wire," so they don't provide the same manual focus feel and accuracy as the S lenses. The other downside is that the lens designs tend to be more complex (more elements). That's not something that an end-user would notice in an obvious way, of course. Given all-new lenses that are incompatible with the S, the simplest choice is to design a new lens mount. We all assume that there will be an adapter for S lenses, even if their mechanical performance would be compromised. Ray angle shouldn't be a problem. S lenses are designed to be mounted farther from the sensor, so they don't have steep ray angles. Any new lenses will be optimized for the new system. All new mirrorless systems align with your view. Canon and Nikon resist mirrorless trend but eventually yield. Hasselblad also jumped into. A new S system? Discontinue the existing S? Oh my, what a crime! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted December 21, 2022 Share #300 Posted December 21, 2022 14 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said: A new S system? Discontinue the existing S? Oh my, what a crime! New system? Probably. Discontinue the existing S? Maybe not. Surely the tooling is paid-for by now. If the new sensor fits, why not keep the S body around with a sensor upgrade? That's what they've done with every iteration of the S so far. A mirrorless medium format system would appeal to a different audience, they don't necessarily have to stop supporting the S professional customers if it can be done cheaply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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