BrianS Posted January 5, 2021 Share #21 Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) From the article: "The only thing certain is, Leica is using the same sensor manufacturer they used for the CCD sensors for the M9. I don’t know if that’s CMOSYS or Jazz. But something is odd, for sure." What is he babbling about? Kodak made the sensor for the M9, that line was bought out by ONSEMI, and the entire manufacturing chain has been shutdown. Do people actually pay money to read this guys delusions? And it is "CMOSIS", now acquired by AMS. https://ams.com/cmos-imaging-sensors This one is 47.5MPixels, available in Mono and Color. But not the one used in the M10M and M10R. https://ams.com/cmv50000 ONSEMI no longer makes an imaging sensor in 24mmx36mm format, APS-H and Super-35 sized sensors only. I had to look up Super-35, 24.89 mm × 18.66 mm. Edited January 5, 2021 by BrianS 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 Hi BrianS, Take a look here M10M gate coming?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted January 5, 2021 Share #22 Posted January 5, 2021 10 hours ago, overexposed said: i can clearly see the white dots all over the image, i had similar dots on my 246 while long exposures. and on the top center of the largest image you can see the different brightness. which shows the sensor isnt one piece. which gave me the idea that the supplier of the sensors might be dalsa? they had done this for the phase one backs. to tile the sensor pieces up to one unit No it is not Dalsa. Just about any sensor can show a centerfold issue, in a few instances; it is a matter of sending the camera in for adjustment. Furthermore extreme noise can show up as white speckling on a monochrome sensor. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 5, 2021 Share #23 Posted January 5, 2021 10 hours ago, Rob L said: I'm pretty sure color filters do create some degree of focus shift that might impact landscape use. I've been meaning to break out the VisoFlex and check it out Only on non-APO lenses. (give or take a few quibbles ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted January 5, 2021 Share #24 Posted January 5, 2021 I see the transfer irregularity between the two parts. A vertical band with just slight tone differences. Less of a difference than the "banding" from the 8 bits publishing of the photo as seen in the skies just around it. But it is there. What this reminds me of is the same band on the KAF-18500 that also really consists of two CCD chips joined together, that Jadon Rosado got who will re-cover the M9 sensor - he got it in several first attempts. See at Cameraderie and the link there. I think the sensors with this type of architecture - being divided like also the M8 ; whether it is physically or in the readout - are prone to this artefact. alberrt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
convexferret Posted January 5, 2021 Share #25 Posted January 5, 2021 I can reproduce this easily on my M10M, but only doing one particular thing, which I almost never do, and Diglloyd is doing it too. A huge boost in the Lightroom Dehaze control. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 5, 2021 Share #26 Posted January 5, 2021 22 hours ago, Gobert said: . do I have the sensor problem? No. And you don't have a V8 engine 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFriendly Posted January 5, 2021 Share #27 Posted January 5, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 1/4/2021 at 4:37 AM, jaapv said: - as with his report "including failing to fix camera crashes (total lockups) which I experienced at least a dozen times in my one-week trip over XMAS" A dozen times? And nobody else? The firmware in M does freeze/lockup, and it's a real problem. I have experienced it many times with my M10-P and M246M, and I can have it lockup within minutes if I wanted to. Others have experienced the problem as well (If you read the threads I linked to). Leica repair's response to me was that it's not the camera nor the firmware but the SD card that's causing the lockup/freeze issue. Their recommendation was to use 95MB/s or slower cards, go figure. Leica is basically in denial about it or they refuse to acknowledge the problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted January 5, 2021 Share #28 Posted January 5, 2021 24 minutes ago, convexferret said: I can reproduce this easily on my M10M, but only doing one particular thing, which I almost never do, and Diglloyd is doing it too. A huge boost in the Lightroom Dehaze control. I just tried that. Below a sample photo (taken last week, M10M, 21mm SEM, orange filter) imported into LR Classic, all sliders left at zero then exported as 2480px jpg. Second photo is same image but with Dehaze slider set at 100, then processed as for first photo. On my iMac 21.5" I am not seeing the reported difference between the two halves of the adjusted photo. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316688-m10m-gate-coming/?do=findComment&comment=4112816'>More sharing options...
Technician Posted January 5, 2021 Share #29 Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) So, this guy found slight variation in the sky between two halves of an image, but doesn't seem bothered at all by horrible banding in tonal transitions? What processing technique he is using? 8 bit conversion to 256 grayscale and back? What a joke of a dilettante. It never ceases to amaze that people are paying him for his reviews. Edited January 5, 2021 by Technician Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted January 5, 2021 Share #30 Posted January 5, 2021 Do I remember correctly that shooting with a low battery @ low temps, this could easier happen? Or was that only M8/9? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted January 5, 2021 Share #31 Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Keith (M) said: I just tried that. Below a sample photo (taken last week, M10M, 21mm SEM, orange filter) imported into LR Classic, all sliders left at zero then exported as 2480px jpg. Second photo is same image but with Dehaze slider set at 100, then processed as for first photo. On my iMac 21.5" I am not seeing the reported difference between the two halves of the adjusted photo. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! You can't see the difference between the two halves?? Good Lord, man, are ye blind? 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted January 5, 2021 Share #32 Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, convexferret said: I can reproduce this easily on my M10M, but only doing one particular thing, which I almost never do, and Diglloyd is doing it too. A huge boost in the Lightroom Dehaze control. I've tried unsuccessfully to do this with my M10M files and even went back to some M9M files. Sliding the dehaze control all the way to the right I am unable to reproduce this line. A current theory is that it might be caused by a very slight pause of the horizontal shutter curtain, perhaps as a result of the damping put into the shutters to make them quiet. This would explain why some cameras might have the issue while others don't. Some shutters have a slight pause, others don't. That would also lead me to expect that with increasing numbers of shutter clicks, this would cease. Pure guesswork on that. Edited January 5, 2021 by fotografr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 5, 2021 Share #33 Posted January 5, 2021 37 minutes ago, fotografr said: A current theory is that it might be caused by a very slight pause of the horizontal shutter curtain, "The greatest tragedy in Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact!" - Thomas Henry Huxley The fact: No digital Leica M has horizontal shutter curtains. They all have vertical-travel blade shutters. 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted January 5, 2021 Share #34 Posted January 5, 2021 46 minutes ago, adan said: "The greatest tragedy in Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact!" - Thomas Henry Huxley The fact: No digital Leica M has horizontal shutter curtains. They all have vertical-travel blade shutters. Just to be clear, that theory was put forth by Lloyd, not me. I've now received around 10 emails from the guy and my conclusion is that he's a bit of a crackpot. He responds horribly to any suggestion that he might be mistaken and seems convinced that I and all the other M users on this forum are so blinded by our loyalty to the brand as to be unwilling to accept that there might be flaws. 3 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted January 5, 2021 Share #35 Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) Lloyd Chambers, in an email, explained to me that I could easily produce the line through my image by following certain processes--using a red filter, shooting into a blue sky, sliding the dehaze control halfway to the right, then making some curves adjustments. Well, I did all that and more. I moved the dehaze control ALL the way to the right. These are adjustments that I can't imagine ever doing to an image I cared about. This was shot with a 50mm Noctilux at f8, red filter, etc, etc. I see no line. The only good thing for me that came out of all this fussing around was that after doing my first test shooting into a blue sky, then examining the image at massive enlargements, I discovered I needed to clean my sensor. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 5, 2021 by fotografr 1 9 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316688-m10m-gate-coming/?do=findComment&comment=4113129'>More sharing options...
adan Posted January 5, 2021 Share #36 Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) Given that Leica does not have a perfectly spotless record* - especially dealing with new or revised sensors - I'm always ready to give such reports due consideration. And you did the right thing - try to determine if the observed effect can be replicated by independent observers, using the identical technique. Just like "cold fusion." It is certainly possible Mr. Chambers got a dud or maladjusted sensor. A warranty issue (free adjustment, repair, or replacement). But is it every M10M sensor, or one in two (50% fault rate), or one in a thousand, or one in ten thousand? __________________ * M8: "purple tuxedos," "green blobs," "green bands," "waterfall effect." M9: strange lockups and/or pixellation with low batteries (with at least one firmware version) M9/MM: sensor corrosion Edited January 5, 2021 by adan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted January 5, 2021 Share #37 Posted January 5, 2021 24 minutes ago, adan said: Given that Leica does not have a perfectly spotless record* - especially dealing with new or revised sensors - I'm always ready to give such reports due consideration. And you did the right thing - try to determine if the observed effect can be replicated by independent observers, using the identical technique. Just like "cold fusion." It is certainly possible Mr. Chambers got a dud or maladjusted sensor. A warranty issue (free adjustment, repair, or replacement). But is it every M10M sensor, or one in two (50% fault rate), or one in a thousand, or one in ten thousand? __________________ * M8: "purple tuxedos," "green blobs," "green bands," "waterfall effect." M9: strange lockups and/or pixellation with low batteries (with at least one firmware version) M9/MM: sensor corrosion He pretty much did a blanket condemnation of the M10M based on what he saw. I believe his words were that this problem renders the M10M, "dead on arrival." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
overexposed Posted January 6, 2021 Author Share #38 Posted January 6, 2021 11 hours ago, MrFriendly said: The firmware in M does freeze/lockup, and it's a real problem. I have experienced it many times with my M10-P and M246M, and I can have it lockup within minutes if I wanted to. Others have experienced the problem as well (If you read the threads I linked to). Leica repair's response to me was that it's not the camera nor the firmware but the SD card that's causing the lockup/freeze issue. Their recommendation was to use 95MB/s or slower cards, go figure. Leica is basically in denial about it or they refuse to acknowledge the problem. really laughable, that's why a firmware update for the m-p fixed the crashing, did the FW update also updated the firmware of the SD card? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good To Be Retired Posted January 6, 2021 Share #39 Posted January 6, 2021 On 1/4/2021 at 4:37 AM, jaapv said: Digiloyd has a history of crying wolf without any understanding of the alleged problem Which wouldn't be such an issue if you didn't have to pay him to hear it 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobert Posted January 6, 2021 Share #40 Posted January 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, Good To Be Retired said: Which wouldn't be such an issue if you didn't have to pay him to hear it If he continues like this he will end as the lonely wolf. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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