M10M gate coming?

[LocalHero1953]

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22 hours ago, adan said:

"The greatest tragedy in Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact!" - Thomas Henry Huxley

The fact: No digital Leica M has horizontal shutter curtains. They all have vertical-travel blade shutters.
 

I was about to reply on the same lines. The fact that many people on this forum would also have replied as you have, but less elegantly, really does call into question Lloyd's expertise, whether or not he has a dud sensor - which I'm sure can happen.

[BrianS]

On 1/5/2021 at 1:51 PM, adan said:

"The greatest tragedy in Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact!" - Thomas Henry Huxley

The fact: No digital Leica M has horizontal shutter curtains. They all have vertical-travel blade shutters.
 

I can only remember that the DCS100, based on the Nikon F3HP,  had a horizontal travel shutter.

Where their others? Just asking out of interest. If Leica had switched to a titanium foil shutter, they might have been able to use horizontal travel- no problem contaminating the sensor. I remember back in M8 days the discussion regarding the change in shutter mechanism.

Edited January 7, 2021 by BrianS

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[adan]

I'm sure in the digital M's the primary consideration is the size of the curtain spools. They take up a lot of volume that Leica needs for electronics in  the digital bodies.

See first image here: https://photo.imx.nl/technique/leica/page103.html

The Nikon F3 electronic shutter (and likely the M7 shutter) save a little room by substituting chips and electromagnets for gears and springs.

See last image: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf3ver2/htmls/index2.htm

But also keep in mind that the DCS100 did not need room for a lot of electronics besides the sensor - because it was permanently tethered to a motor-sized base-mounted processing unit, and an external storage module as big as a Domke bag.

https://www.nikonweb.com/dcs100/

Anyone want a digital M 6"/15cm tall?

In Fall 1992 the AP held a seminar on the DCS100 for all us local newspapers graphics types in San Juan, PR. They were so proud to tell us we could print up to 8" x 10" (A4) in color; or 11x14 with the monochrome version! (At newsprint resolution) And it would only cost us $25,000 (or we could rent one from the local AP office for special events).

[BrianS]

18 hours ago, adan said:

I'm sure in the digital M's the primary consideration is the size of the curtain spools. They take up a lot of volume that Leica needs for electronics in  the digital bodies.

See first image here: https://photo.imx.nl/technique/leica/page103.html

The Nikon F3 electronic shutter (and likely the M7 shutter) save a little room by substituting chips and electromagnets for gears and springs.

See last image: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf3ver2/htmls/index2.htm

But also keep in mind that the DCS100 did not need room for a lot of electronics besides the sensor - because it was permanently tethered to a motor-sized base-mounted processing unit, and an external storage module as big as a Domke bag.

https://www.nikonweb.com/dcs100/

Anyone want a digital M 6"/15cm tall?

In Fall 1992 the AP held a seminar on the DCS100 for all us local newspapers graphics types in San Juan, PR. They were so proud to tell us we could print up to 8" x 10" (A4) in color; or 11x14 with the monochrome version! (At newsprint resolution) And it would only cost us $25,000 (or we could rent one from the local AP office for special events).

I handled a DCS-100 at a computer show in town. I waited for the DCS200 to come out. Have the first delivered IR version. It was "only" $12,400 for the body- an extra $4000 over the regular monochrome and color versions. The first Digital Sensor that I used required several flight racks of equipment, that was the early 1980s.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by BrianS

[glenerrolrd]

On 1/5/2021 at 8:55 AM, convexferret said:

I can reproduce this easily on my M10M, but only doing one particular thing, which I almost never do, and Diglloyd is doing it too. A huge boost in the Lightroom Dehaze control.

Thank you for nailing this one .   You always have to consider the context (what he is photographing ) and the Post Processing .    He shoots his tests directly into the sun in extreme contrast situations .  (I can t remember having a file I ETTR and then still had to lift the shadows 100% ).   I would never intentionally set up a capture for such and extreme DR without using a graduated ND filter .  

THe 2nd issue is noted above use of post processing software to dramatically change the tone curve (Dehaze) without considering the artifacts .  If you are familiar with any of the Topaz AI plug ins ..you know to look for these aberrations and pull back .  

I don t doubt for a minute that DL can create these issues on demand from his files .   But I also know that I would be able to avoid them 100% of the time in my work .  

 

[jaapv]

Actually there is noting new here. Try overdoing  the clarity slider on a greyscale image; it will create huge diffuse haloes like incompetent dodging. As I said before, DL is prone to crying wolf without understanding the issue. 

[hdmesa]

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On 1/16/2021 at 4:29 PM, jaapv said:

Actually there is noting new here. Try overdoing  the clarity slider on a greyscale image; it will create huge diffuse haloes like incompetent dodging. As I said before, DL is prone to crying wolf without understanding the issue. 

DL is saying (via email) that the artifacts are visible before applying adjustments. I've tried applying massive amounts of all the discussed filters on complex, detailed images from the Q2M and cannot get the issue to show up, so the assumption some have made that this issue is a sometimes-unavoidable characteristic associated with monochrome sensors may not be accurate. Of course it could be the Q2 lens design, the extra 7mp, and/or the different design of the Q2 sensor that keeps it from showing up on the Q2M.

[UliWer]

Here is an example of a vertical line in the upper part of the frame's center from the M10 Monochrom:

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and enlarged:

ISO 160, no filter on the lens (an old 2.8cm Hektor, lens detection disabled). I found the same on two other photos I took of the same scene in slightly different angles at the same time with just a few seconds between them.  The RAWs taken by the camera were not altered - especially no dehazing.

I checked many other files, but could not find the same vertical line. My theory is that it may occur if there is no structure at all in the upper center (in this case very bright blue sky). With only very slight clouds in the same region I cannot find anything similar even at max. enlargement.   

[dkmoore]

14 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Here is an example of a vertical line in the upper part of the frame's center from the M10 Monochrom:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

and enlarged:

ISO 160, no filter on the lens (an old 2.8cm Hektor, lens detection disabled). I found the same on two other photos I took of the same scene in slightly different angles at the same time with just a few seconds between them.  The RAWs taken by the camera were not altered - especially no dehazing.

I checked many other files, but could not find the same vertical line. My theory is that it may occur if there is no structure at all in the upper center (in this case very bright blue sky). With only very slight clouds in the same region I cannot find anything similar even at max. enlargement.   

Why is the line off center on the second image? Is it cropped? I have yet to notice this after thousands of images but it is very clearly there on yours.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by dkmoore

[UliWer]

Yes, it's off center because I cropped not exactly in the center.

My theory that it only occurs when there is no structure in the surroundings seems shattered. I found some other shots taken in April last year which show the same issue where the vertical line is surrounded by structures. Here one example, with an 21mm Super-Angulon, yellow filter, RAW-file unaltered, no dehazing, ISO 160. It is a strong crop from the frame's upper center, the line does not go though the whole frame, just one third: 

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P.S: It's not the SD-card, since I used two different ones at the different times. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by UliWer

[t00l1024]

35 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Yes, it's off center because I cropped not exactly in the center.

My theory that it only occurs when there is no structure in the surroundings seems shattered. I found some other shots taken in April last year which show the same issue where the vertical line is surrounded by structures. Here one example, with an 21mm Super-Angulon, yellow filter, RAW-file unaltered, no dehazing, ISO 160. It is a strong crop from the frame's upper center, the line does not go though the whole frame, just one third: 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

P.S: It's not the SD-card, since I used two different ones at the different times. 

Whoa! There's something else going on with your camera. I just went outside to take something uniform in the center of the image. ISO 160 with APO 50mm, no filter. I cannot find any vertical, horizontal or anything else that appear anomalous (besides some sensor dust I need to clean).

 

[BrianS]

The sensor uses multiple A/D circuits to convert the acquired analog signal to digital. I'm  thinking the calibration of the a/d circuitry is off somehow. 

Have you contacted Leica and furnished these sample images? I suspect this is a fix applied via firmware.

Edited January 31, 2021 by BrianS

[dkmoore]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

Yes, it's off center because I cropped not exactly in the center.

My theory that it only occurs when there is no structure in the surroundings seems shattered. I found some other shots taken in April last year which show the same issue where the vertical line is surrounded by structures. Here one example, with an 21mm Super-Angulon, yellow filter, RAW-file unaltered, no dehazing, ISO 160. It is a strong crop from the frame's upper center, the line does not go though the whole frame, just one third: 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

P.S: It's not the SD-card, since I used two different ones at the different times. 

Def let us know what leica says as I’m assuming you are going to reach out to customer service. 

[UliWer]

My camera which showed the vertical lines illustratred above in #48 and #50 went to Wetzlar and came back yesterday. The first diagnosis - without having the camera at hand - was that it was a sensor issue. Though it wasn‘t as they changed the board set, not the sensor. 

I havn‘t had much opportunity to look if it is cured though what I have seen yet looks good. 

[dkmoore]

I have noticed the pimples on some snow images I've taken recently. I don't have the issue with the line, thankfully.

[jplomley]

If I use the Auto transform function in LR (or perform manually), I observe a waffle pattern in the shadows that I am certain would show up in prints. Happens on both M10M's (July 2020 and January 2021 dates of manufacture). I've a feeling this is a LR issue.

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

M10M gate coming?

No.

What we have here is Lloydgate. 🙄

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[jplomley]

On 2/21/2021 at 3:00 AM, UliWer said:

My camera which showed the vertical lines illustratred above in #48 and #50 went to Wetzlar and came back yesterday. The first diagnosis - without having the camera at hand - was that it was a sensor issue. Though it wasn‘t as they changed the board set, not the sensor. 

I havn‘t had much opportunity to look if it is cured though what I have seen yet looks good. 

Any updates to report? My one week old M10M is exhibiting the identical issue.  

[Gobert]

Now it has become “an issue”?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jplomley]

49 minutes ago, Gobert said:

Now it has become “an issue”?

When you shell out $11.5K and a vertical line ruins ones carefully crafted images that cannot be repeated and are part of an on-going project, yes it’s an issue.