A New Year Wish for the M System

[cirke]

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One of the first qualities (for me) of an EVF is that you can see in black and white

[Cobram]

16 hours ago, Steven said:

While I brought many lenses with me, I almost exclusively used one combo. I found it to give me absolutely INCREDIBLE results both in video and stills:

SL2-S + Leica's M adapter + 28 M Summilux.

SL lenses were out of the questions for me because they are totally worthless for video use, while M lenses are incredibly easy to manual focus. They match, to me, cine quality for video. That being said, I am sure that my 28 M Summilux is a far better performer than the new 28SL Cron. Also, keep in mind that I have been shooting for the past 15 years on 35mm only but this 28 Lux which I bought 6 weeks ago is changing the way I see photography. This lens can do it all, from portrait to landscape, from cinematic to clinical, from low light to outdoors....

5% of the time, when I needed a more compact setup, I used a 35 lux pre asph.

I'm amazed you are delighted by SL2-s + M lens combo. You infected me with SL35 related GAS🙂 and now, in practice, seems you prefer M lux to SL Summicrons. Am I right?😅

Anyway @Steven, thank you for all your comments within LUF. I think we were all a little bit surprised by your severe GAS side effects, but you somehow (by buying many Leica stuff) give us many many interesting insights about current Leica gear you bought during your Leica GAS honeymoon. Thank you sincerely for your contribution.🙌

[lct]

3 hours ago, cirke said:

One of the first qualities (for me) of an EVF is that you can see in black and white

Real Leica men always see in black and white

[Martin B]

11 hours ago, lct said:

A Visoflex like this would compete with the SL system so i would not hold my breath. Leica has always launched sub-par accessory EVFs, which fits well the das Wesentliche philosophy . More seriously there is not enough room for high end EVFs if the rangefinder is not removed i suspect but i may be wrong.

+1. Leica will do everything to avoid in-house competition with existing products. IMO this was also the main reason why video was removed in the M series and implemented as 4K video into the SL - simply to differentiate.  Especially since Leica is aware that the SL series isn't doing so well in sales as the M series continues to do well. If the SL series continues, its EVF will also continue to improve whereas the M series will remain OVF-based with expensive two-steps-behind external EVF. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Martin B

[lct]

42 minutes ago, Martin B said:

+1. Leica will do everything to avoid in-house competition with existing products. IMO this was also the main reason why video was removed in the M series and implemented as 4K video into the SL - simply to differentiate.  Especially since Leica is aware that the SL series isn't doing so well in sales as the M series continues to do well. If the SL series continues, its EVF will also continue to improve whereas the M series will remain OVF-based with expensive two-steps-behind external EVF. 

So far M lens users have no choice but compact RF and bulky EVF cameras, besides APS ones. There is a gap to fill there and improving SL's EVFs will change nothing to that. 

[pibitller]

I like

electronic shutter, without curtain (no oil drops on the sensor), with light measurement from the CMOS sensor.

[strohscw]

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 For me, M10 + EVF = SL is not correct, because on the one hand I don't want to do without the RF for my M lenses (especially for wide-angle lenses the RF is faster and more accurate) and yet I need the EVF for R lenses and telephoto lenses.
One of my main reasons for the M camera are the great small M lenses, especially the wide-angle lenses, and it is for these that the M sensor is clearly the best choice.

Therefore, the roles are clearly assigned for me:
M camera: for the small, fantastic M lenses. Everywhere I need a small, handy and manual camera with an EVF when I need longer or R lenses.
SL camera: wherever I need autofocus and excellent lenses and the weight does not play a major role.

[Stephen.s1]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Real Leica men always see in black and white

Age'll do that. 

 

[Cobram]

52 minutes ago, Steven said:

If I didn't shoot 50% stills 50% video with my SL2S, the SL35 and SL28 would be my two lenses. But soon after I infected you, I realised they were unable for video. M lenses are delightful for video ! I'm working on a little travel video from my trip in Colombia with the SL2S and 28 lux, ill try to post it soon to show you guys. 

As for the GAS, im not sure its really gas. I just love tech, and trying new things, to find my perfect setup, if it exists, and I can afford it, so I don't live like if im eternal. I try to enjoy. I'm all in Leica right now, and im very happy, but I did buy the A1 which is waiting for me in Paris. I ll probably end up selling it a month later, but I bought it just because its so incredible on paper that I could not not try it. 

Cheers

Thank you Steven. I really appreciate your contribution to this forum. 👍

[setuporg]

So I came back from a weekend with the kids where I used SL2 with APO 50, Sigma 85/1.4 and the new Sigma 24/3.5.  Often you get kids on the foreground unsharp unless you double-check where AF lands, unless you use spot.  Even at a distance of a few meters.  In that sense, relying on AF will fail you more than relying on RF.  You have to develop a technique that will confirm focus which will probably make it slower than RF at least sometimes.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

So I came back from a weekend with the kids where I used SL2 with APO 50, Sigma 85/1.4 and the new Sigma 24/3.5.  Often you get kids on the foreground unsharp unless you double-check where AF lands, unless you use spot.  Even at a distance of a few meters.  In that sense, relying on AF will fail you more than relying on RF.  You have to develop a technique that will confirm focus which will probably make it slower than RF at least sometimes.

But an RF must be perfectly calibrated, along with the lens; otherwise focus cannot be trusted and live view/playback is also needed to confirm 100% accuracy.  With an EVF, there are no calibration issues; focus is right off the sensor, so it’s a matter of ensuring subject focus, which can be done with magnification, peaking and/or playback. Of course some EVFs are better than others for viewing, refresh, etc. Trade offs depending on subject matter, shooting style/preferences and quality/reliability of gear.

Jeff

[P1505]

If you want technical perfection I think go to Canon or Sony. If you want to hold something wonderful and replace technical perfection with soul go for Leica.

Look at the history of images made with these cameras with their uncalibrated care free humanistic owners. They are wonderful.

[fotografr]

If one thing has become very clear in this long, long thread it's that there are two groups firmly opposed with respect to how images are viewed and focused in future M cameras. One group wants the brilliant rangefinder to be continued. The other wants a camera body that emulates the M but incorporates a high quality EVF. 

I'm all of this discussion I've seen no indication that anyone has been brought from one side to the other. If anything, people on each side seem to have dug in harder in their opinions. 

Each side agrees that it would be nice if both options were offered, but realistically nobody expects that to happen. Leica is, after all, a small company in the camera world and is limited as to the number of assembly lines it can run simultaneously. 

Now comes the hard part--waiting for the M11 to see which side gets their dream camera.

Cheers!

[pippy]

32 minutes ago, fotografr said:

...One group wants the brilliant rangefinder to be continued. The other wants a camera body that emulates the M but incorporates a high quality EVF...

I've heard some folk say that Fuji offer such a camera which sort-of emulates the Leica 'experience' and which might satisfy the preference of the second group. "Emulates" being the watch-word, of course.

Perhaps they should give it a go? Apparently M-mount adapters are available.

Philip.

EDIT : Apologies; I forgot to add the Emoji so here it is.

Edited February 23, 2021 by pippy

[lct]

11 minutes ago, fotografr said:

One group wants the brilliant rangefinder to be continued. The other wants a camera body that emulates the M but incorporates a high quality EVF.

And the third group wants both. Not the first time Leica would have offered different variants of the same camera. 

[Jeff S]

Similar camps exist even within the company...

https://www.macfilos.com/2020/05/18/leica-m-camera-development-evf-ibis-unlikely/

Another possibility is a modernization of the RF mechanism.  Years ago, some patents were cited...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/leicarumors.com/2015/10/14/leicas-patents-for-optoelectronic-rangefinder.aspx/amp/

We’ve also learned from Leica execs that the company has indeed experimented with hybrid  approaches, but resulted in acceptable compromises to both the RF and EVF...

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/02/the-leica-m10-a-discussion-with-stefan-daniel-and-jesko-von-oeynhausen/

Jeff

Edited February 23, 2021 by Jeff S

[lct]

For those who believe that Leica cannot offer different M mount cameras.
(* = sans rangefinder) 
1964: *M1, M2, M3, *MD
1968: M3, M4, *MDa
1976: M4-2, M5, *MD-2
2021: M10-R, M10 mono, M-E, M10-D, M10-P, M10, M240, M262, M246, M-A, MP 

Edited February 23, 2021 by lct

[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, Steven said:

How about a hybrid patent ? You look in the little hole, its an RF OVF... you press a button (or invoke it with your brain), and an evf slides down ? 😇

Leica has tried hybrid/dual viewing.  Read above.

Jeff

[graphlex]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

On some EVF you can! One more reason to hate the visoflex 020. 

Can’t you do that on M10 with 020 by selecting a black and white jpeg profile?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Steven said:

" We talked a lot to our customers to find out what the essential requirements for the new generation were" who believes that part of the interview? 

 

Read harder.  Third link excerpt...

Pretty much since the M8 came out, I’d say. I think there’s always been other requests on the periphery of that like a hybrid viewfinder. This would be an enormous challenge given the depth restrictions, correct? 

Stefan: The greatest challenge would be to integrate the rangefinding function, the optical viewfinder and the EVF panel.

 

All in the space of 33.7mm?

Stefan: All in this space, yes. And being in every single aspect as good as it would be as a separate solution. And to be quite frank, we had a pre-development project to analyze that and it was a dead end. It would have been a so-so finder, a so-so rangefinder and a medium quality EVF panel. That’s why Fuji is a bit simpler because they don’t have the rangefinder part.
 

Jeff