A New Year Wish for the M System

[mmradman]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

If Leica wish to make purist digital RF camera than remove EVF option completely if you dare.  The fact of the matter today is that the CMOS is the mainstream sensor type and all other vendors fully utilise its output, shift to mirrorless is the prof of that.  It would be in Leica's interest to do the same for RF camera full heartedly.  I am hinting here is to provide top of the range EVF functionality, either stand alone like Q or full frame CL size camera with M mount or add on to the Optical RF. 

Current two generations of M10, 24Mp and 40mp, Cameras use same EVF which is substandard today.  I am currently sitting on the fence  to upgrade my M246 but the M10M it is not.  Dear Dr Kaufmann, to part with money I expect better EVF implenmtation.

[MrFriendly]

10 hours ago, setuporg said:

A lot of folks wish various things for the M to become.  Ultimately, if you sum up all the wishes here, it should have a lidar, a printer, and a kitchen sink.

Since we all can wish here, I wish that people who want to make it something very much unlike the M system will just leave it the heck alone.

• Want EVF?  Get something else.
• Want IBIS?  Get something else.
• Want eye tracking?  Get something else.
• Want GPS?  Get something else.
• Want video?  Get something else.
• Want easy battery/card access, or two SD card slots?  Get something else!
• Want autofocus?  You get the idea.

Wishing you all a very happy New Year with a real M camera!

I certainly do not want an EVF in my M camera because I know the resolution and the latency isn't there.  If you think about it, an OVF has zero latency and "infinite" resolution.  Maybe in 20-30 years when display technology improves to the point where it makes sense to have an EVF, but right now I don't think it does.  My wish list for the near future:

• Interchangeable Sensor: I think this would increase the longevity of digital M because we won't be forced to upgrade to a whole new M camera everytime Leica release a new M with a better sensor.  It would also reduce the effects of planned obsolescence, and possibly narrow the gap between analog M and digital M.
• Electronic Shutter:  enough said 🙂
• Crank-Powered M: maybe a bad idea, but similar to crank-powered flash lights, I think it would be neat to be able to use the fold-out thumb rest to charge an internal capacitor to fire a shot when the battery is dead.

[Matlock]

I have to say that my response is "Get something else". However this has set me thinking. If Leica Forum had existed in 1954, what have been the response to Leica's betrayal of the IIIf by the introduction of the M3. I am willing to bet that a large number felt that the later introduction of the IIIg was the only real way forward.😄

[Cronilux]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb MrFriendly:

I certainly do not want an EVF in my M camera because I know the resolution and the latency isn't there.  If you think about it, an OVF has zero latency and "infinite" resolution.  Maybe in 20-30 years when display technology improves to the point where it makes sense to have an EVF, but right now I don't think it does.  My wish list for the near future:

• Interchangeable Sensor: I think this would increase the longevity of digital M because we won't be forced to upgrade to a whole new M camera everytime Leica release a new M with a better sensor.  It would also reduce the effects of planned obsolescence, and possibly narrow the gap between analog M and digital M.
• Electronic Shutter:  enough said 🙂
• Crank-Powered M: maybe a bad idea, but similar to crank-powered flash lights, I think it would be neat to be able to use the fold-out thumb rest to charge an internal capacitor to fire a shot when the battery is dead.

You obviously have never used an EVF. 

[evikne]

My main wish for the M system: Stay on the narrow road and keep it simple. Leave the rest to the others.

[MrFriendly]

2 hours ago, Cronilux said:

You obviously have never used an EVF. 

I have, I own a Fuji X-Pro3.  What's your point?

[Dr No]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

15 hours ago, setuporg said:

A lot of folks wish various things for the M to become.  Ultimately, if you sum up all the wishes here, it should have a lidar, a printer, and a kitchen sink.

Since we all can wish here, I wish that people who want to make it something very much unlike the M system will just leave it the heck alone.

• Want EVF?  Get something else.
• Want IBIS?  Get something else.
• Want eye tracking?  Get something else.
• Want GPS?  Get something else.
• Want video?  Get something else.
• Want easy battery/card access, or two SD card slots?  Get something else!
• Want autofocus?  You get the idea.

Wishing you all a very happy New Year with a real M camera!

It has an EVF, it's useful.
If it had space for IBIS, which it doesn't, it would be useful.
It has GPS, it's useful.
It had video and they removed it because of heat. It should have it and I will be happy when it's back because it's useful.
It has easy battery access. Two slots would be a waste space but useful.
It should have a way to use flash and the EVF at the same time. Without it it's a lot less useful.

To be but a fly on the wall of the gallery of old, listening to the same arguments from 'real photographers' and pundits espousing 'real view cameras' over the scourge of the tiny hand held technological Leica'.

Happy New Year to the irascible, intractable, pontifical and thoroughly entertaining 'purists'; the Mormons, the Wetlzarian Wizards and Luddites of photography  😂

May our coming year be filled with pictures not cameras!

[Erato]

1. Diopter setting wheel

2. 0.91

3. Exceed 0.7m limitation

4. Focus button ==> DoF preview

Edited December 28, 2020 by Erato

[tom.w.bn]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

I am articulating a conservative position that we don't want this stuff here.  M is defined by what it's not as much as by what it is.  NIMBY => Not In My BackYard.  M11 should refine M10-R in the ways that eschew all the anti-M features.

You don't talk for me so please define who "we" is.

 

[Herr Barnack]

17 hours ago, setuporg said:

A lot of folks wish various things for the M to become.  Ultimately, if you sum up all the wishes here, it should have a lidar, a printer, and a kitchen sink.

Since we all can wish here, I wish that people who want to make it something very much unlike the M system will just leave it the heck alone.

• Want EVF?  Get something else.
• Want IBIS?  Get something else.
• Want eye tracking?  Get something else.
• Want GPS?  Get something else.
• Want video?  Get something else.
• Want easy battery/card access, or two SD card slots?  Get something else!
• Want autofocus?  You get the idea.

Wishing you all a very happy New Year with a real M camera!

Hear, hear!!

The M camera is supposed to be an M camera, not a Swiss Army Knife that makes photographs.

JMHO, but the M5 and M240 were two experiments in trying to stretch the M camera envelope that demonstrated the importance of staying true to the M camera design philosophy. 

Some may disagree, but I am of the belief that digital M cameras should be still cameras.  Ditch the video making function! 

Next, keep the optical rangefinder mechanism as it is in the M10R/M10 Mono - don't replace it with an EVF mechanism.

If you want EVF, get something else - something called the Q2, Q2 Monochrom, SL2 or SL2S.

The M camera is a niche camera; let it be what it is and let it do what it does better than any other camera in the world. 

As for the M11, I would be greatly pleased if it turns out to be an M10R but with a 47+ megapixel backside illuminates sensor.  Seriously:  Other than that, what else does an M camera actually need??

 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[mmradman]

2 hours ago, MrFriendly said:

I have, I own a Fuji X-Pro3.  What's your point?

Post #27 is perhaps good reminder to be nice to each other but can’t pass commenting on your post #22. Please entertain us us with your idea of how interchangeable sensor and crank up power supply would work, did you get these ideas using your Fuji?

The one enhancement or crutch if you will which is really easy to implement would be EVF.

[mmradman]

3 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Hear, hear!!

The M camera is supposed to be an M camera, not a Swiss Army Knife that makes photographs.

JMHO, but the M5 and M240 were two experiments in trying to stretch the M camera envelope that demonstrated the importance of staying true to the M camera design philosophy. 

Some may disagree, but I am of the belief that digital M cameras should be still cameras.  Ditch the video making function! 

Next, keep the optical rangefinder mechanism as it is in the M10R/M10 Mono - don't replace it with an EVF mechanism.

If you want EVF, get something else - something called the Q2, Q2 Monochrom, SL2 or SL2S.

The M camera is a niche camera; let it be what it is and let it do what it does better than any other camera in the world. 

As for the M11, I would be greatly pleased if it turns out to be an M10R but with a 47+ megapixel backside illuminates sensor.  Seriously:  Other than that, what else does an M camera actually need??

 

 

By your logic M camera should never be digital, nothing wrong with film M.

[Herr Barnack]

2 minutes ago, mmradman said:

By your logic M camera should never be digital, nothing wrong with film M.

True, there is nothing "wrong" with film.

However:  Leica has successfully demonstrated more than once that there is indeed a place for a digital sensor in the M camera ethos.

[mike3996]

18 hours ago, setuporg said:

Since we all can wish here, I wish that people who want to make it something very much unlike the M system will just leave it the heck alone.

I opened this thread expecting to read yet another wishlist-fanfic that reads like something written by a Sony fanboy (a very strong pejorative in case you were unsure).

Instead I find myself in the company of like-minded wise gentlemen. 🧐

 

I don't object a compact M-mount EVF camera but it should be named "SL" definitely, it's not a rangefinder in any sense of the word. Ok, maybe I object a little: choosing between a M10R and a possible SL-M would be very hard on me and my wallet.

[lct]

M cameras will remain rangefinders of course, why wouldn't they? Question is why not a compact SL with M mount. A rational response would be there is not enough demand for it but i've never heard such a reasoning so far. 

[mmradman]

5 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

True, there is nothing "wrong" with film.

However:  Leica has successfully demonstrated more than once that there is indeed a place for a digital sensor in the M camera ethos.

It wasn’t a question of demonstrating what is possible but survival. Without digital M the Leica camera business would have died.

To survive in the future it needs to produce cameras that appeal to majority user base not few nostalgia mongers and collectors.

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

It wasn’t a question of demonstrating what is possible but survival. Without digital M the Leica camera business would have died.

True.

Quote

To survive in the future it needs to produce cameras that appeal to majority user base not few nostalgia mongers and collectors.

Not so much.  It seems that Leica is doing quite well with its current product offerings. 

While I do not have access to their books, it appears that Leica is on sound footing in terms of financial criteria. 

In 2005, Leica nearly went under; in 2014, Leica opened its new megadollar world headquarters in Wetzlar.  That's quite a financial turnaround. 

As far as we know, Leica is not being served eviction notices from whoever holds the paper on their new(ish) headquarters.  Pay checks for their work force are not bouncing, either.  Leica is doing something - as in several somethings - right. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[pedaes]

15 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Leica opened its new megadollar world headquarters in Wetzlar

Which is not owned by 'Leica' (but by Dr.K's other interests), and for which Leica pay  rent. That said, it is the only funding option that would have worked and I am pleased it happened. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by pedaes

[MrFriendly]

3 hours ago, mmradman said:

Post #27 is perhaps good reminder to be nice to each other but can’t pass commenting on your post #22. Please entertain us us with your idea of how interchangeable sensor and crank up power supply would work, did you get these ideas using your Fuji?

The one enhancement or crutch if you will which is really easy to implement would be EVF.

Well, I don't know how deep you want me to go, but I'll give a brief overview without getting into too much details (And no, I didn't get these ideas from using my Fuji).

The interchangeable sensor would be like a cartridge; remove the bottom plate and just slide in the sensor cartridge.  It's quiet simple actually.

The crank-powered system is a bit tricky because there isn't enough room in an M body.  By replacing the mechanical shutter with an electric shutter, and using solid state battery instead of the current bulky ones, we can open up enough room for a capacitor and some kind of dynamo mechanism.

An EVF in an M body is actually a lot more problematic than the above two.  An EVF sees what the sensor sees, whereas the OVF sees more, and that's the first problem.  For the EVF to see outside of the field-of-view of the lens and outside the framelines, you would need a secondary sensor just for the rangefinder mechanism, and that idea has its own problems.  The alternative to implement a hybrid system, and that's what Fuji has done and it's gimmicky.

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

10 hours ago, MrFriendly said:

I certainly do not want an EVF in my M camera because I know the resolution and the latency isn't there.  If you think about it, an OVF has zero latency and "infinite" resolution.  Maybe in 20-30 years when display technology improves to the point where it makes sense to have an EVF, but right now I don't think it does.  My wish list for the near future:

• Interchangeable Sensor: I think this would increase the longevity of digital M because we won't be forced to upgrade to a whole new M camera everytime Leica release a new M with a better sensor.  It would also reduce the effects of planned obsolescence, and possibly narrow the gap between analog M and digital M.
• Electronic Shutter:  enough said 🙂
• Crank-Powered M: maybe a bad idea, but similar to crank-powered flash lights, I think it would be neat to be able to use the fold-out thumb rest to charge an internal capacitor to fire a shot when the battery is dead.

The last Leica exec who spoke about the strategy of M upgrade-ability was fired.

Jeff